Kim Doyal is a long time friend, mentor and legend. I had the privilege of catching up with Kim for two hours over the Christmas season, and the next two episodes are the end result of that.
Kim shares lessons she has learned along the journey, as well as sharing exciting ideas she has for the future.
Check out Kim’s podcast here, it is an essential podcast on our team’s playlist.
Connect with Kim over on the Twitter-sphere here.
Note: This transcript was auto generated then some poor soul sat and listened to it, and followed through correcting any mistakes they spotted. Please however expect human error and shout if you spot an issue. Email: lee [fancy curly symbol] trailblazer.fm.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Welcome to WP Innovator podcast, the podcast for web designers and design agencies exploring the world of WordPress and online business. And now your host, Lee Jackson. Hi and welcome to episode number 58 of the WP Innovator podcast. This is your host, Lee, and today we have something quite different for you. A2. Now, you all know I get on really, really well with Kim doyle. She’s the WP chick [email protected] and she runs her own WordPress podcast which also deals in all sorts of things like marketing and sales, as well as her own journey, which is absolutely fascinating. Now I got her on the phone and we decided to have a chat.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And the thing is, this chat kind of turned into like a two hour chat. So I can’t just dump a whole two hours on you right now. So what we’re going to do is going to split it in half and I’m not really going to edit it because Kim is one of those people that kind of, she will talk around in a little bit of a circle, but she’ll bring you back to somewhere and it’ll just give you an amazing, ah, moment when she finally takes you there. So sit back, relax, enjoy the ride, make some great notes. If you’re driving, don’t make notes, just make mental notes. Here it goes. Hello and welcome to the WP Innovator Podcast. I am here with my friend and your friend Kim Doyle.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Hello, how are you doing?
Kim Doyal:
I am fabulous. I’m super pumped to be here. Well, you know what it’s like, it’s almost the end of 2016, so the closer we get to the end of the year, the happier I’m getting.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
This is true. This is not a reflection on how much wine, mind you. It’s 11 o’ clock for you, so it’s coffee, isn’t it, rather than wine
Kim Doyal:
at this point it is coffee. Although I’ve had two coffees and so I’m hitting some water so that my brain doesn’t completely feel squeezed and dehydrated.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, that’s a very good idea. I remember one week I had. They’re called flat whites in the uk, but I think it’s like a really strong latte. It’s like a four shot latte or something. Ridiculous. And I had, I’d had three of those the other day in the morning, not even thinking about it, just being given them by the by. The lady kept coming at me at the coffee shops like, do you want more coffee? And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. And after three cups I Don’t know if you’ve ever seen the over the Hedge film with Hani.
Kim Doyal:
I don’t, I don’t think I have.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh man. Well, maybe I’ll put a link in the show notes. But there’s a. If I remember that I just said that, I’m sure I’ve done that like a gazillion times. I’ll put a link in the show notes and like totally forget. But yes, I. There’s this kind of slow motion where this, this squirrel has had tons of caffeine and then suddenly the whole world just kind of slows down for him and everyone’s just like. But he’s like walking around going and like walking around, just normal paced, like moving things out of people’s way as they’re slowly falling over and stuff like that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s kind of how I felt for the rest of that afternoon.
Kim Doyal:
Yeah, it can be a little frustrating and especially today because it’s stormy and wet and windy outside and so it’s like ideal. Like I just, there’s something about the ritual of coffee. Yes, I like the caffeine, but I usually don’t like keep drinking it through the day. But I’m like, I want more coffee. It’s cozy.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, I didn’t think you’d get that kind of cool, cooler weather in California, but maybe you do then. So.
Kim Doyal:
Yeah, it’s funny, a lot of people think because I’m like an hour east of San Francisco in no traffic, but it definitely gets, it gets cold inland. Like we’re supposed to be dry the next five days, but it’s still going to get probably low in the middle of the night, like the 30s.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I get you.
Kim Doyal:
Yeah. So it actually gets cold here.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s summer for us.
Kim Doyal:
I know guys, if you don’t remember
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Kim Doyle, by the way, just go back to episode three. That’s how long ago she was here.
Kim Doyal:
Holy moly.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I just remembered. I was like, oh crap, that was years ago.
Kim Doyal:
Carry on. That totally was years ago. Now we don’t need to get into the weather patterns here. But it’s like I realize I need to stop, stop whining about the weather. Then when I see people on the east coast even who are, you know, like minus one, and I was like, okay, okay. I won’t whine about having to wear a scarf with my hoodie unless there’s
Lee Matthew Jackson:
this global warming thing going on, isn’t there? Isn’t it like New York and that entire area are going to get another kind of cold frost thing that they had the other year, aren’t they?
Kim Doyal:
Yeah. And it’s crazy as we get because I’ve definitely decided I’m down to like two and a half more years before I’m an empty nester. And so I’m like, okay, I need to go somewhere where we have better seasons because it gets hot. Like I get over 100 during the summer, like the temperature here and I’m just, I’m tired of it, you know, so I’m like, there’s got to be something in between somewhere. So we’ll figure that out.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, I don’t recommend Canada anyway, so there you go. By the way, welcome to the Weather Channel with Kim and Lee.
Kim Doyal:
I’m sorry, moving on.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, no, this is, this is like a, this is a UK indulgence. If you don’t even know, if you don’t know, if you don’t know someone, talk to the weather and you’ve then got a best friend for life. It’s, it’s, it’s hilarious. Totally. Well, let me just do a quick intro anyway, especially for the people that don’t know Kim. So, guys, you are listening to a conversation with me and my really good friend Kim. Kim Doyle is From, from the WP Chick website wpchick.com she runs an amazing podcast. I’ve listened to her for years.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
She’s been doing them for years. She’s awesome. She talks all about WordPress. She doesn’t mix up all of the complicated stuff. Instead she shares all about WordPress for people who don’t necessarily know code, etc. And she helps people go from kind of WordPress beginner to WordPress power implementer powerhouse slash marketing genius, etc. She puts out amazing content and also interviews amazing people, including me once on
Kim Doyal:
the podcast, soon to be Twice.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Soon to be Twice. Can’t wait for that. And so go check the wpchick.com out right now. Press pause. And if you’re driving, just keep listening. And Kim, I’ll let you give yourself an even further introduction as well. Say hi to the WP innovators out there.
Kim Doyal:
Well, hello WP innovators. You know the introduction, it was fun to listen to what you gave because my, my site and business has like anybody else, transitioned. I will be hitting nine years online in March, which I honestly can’t believe. And I unlikely. I’m not a code or programmer or have that background. I just fell in love with WordPress and just, I was kind of on a mission to find something I could do from home and I had been widowed in 2003. And I’m like, you know what? I’m all they’ve got, so I need to be around. So fast forward and my love and obsession is really the content marketing.
Kim Doyal:
I love marketing more so than development or any of that kind of stuff, but it’s really taking and working with finding your voice and differentiating yourself online. And there’s so much out there. And I have kind of become obsessed with fundamentals again. It’s been fascinating. So, yeah, my goal is to help people profit with their WordPress sites and market and run their business while making things easier.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s what I love about your show because you’ve definitely transitioned into a lot more of the. Kind of. Into the marketing aspects, but also your bi. Really honest and raw, which I totally love because we hear a lot of people, don’t we? Like, they seem like they’ve always got it all together and you feel like you just can’t achieve it, if that makes sense. Whereas you’re actually sharing your journey, warts and all. And we can kind of follow what you’re. You’re getting up to, know that sometimes it’s not easy and that you’re also human like everybody else. And you know.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And that actually, I find is a huge encouragement to me and I’m sure to your listeners as well, you know, because you are super honest and that’s pretty damn cool. I think I do pretend a bit too much to be always awesome.
Kim Doyal:
Well, you know what, Lee? But the thing. I think you are always awesome, but I think. I think it is. And I’ve totally babysit my way into that. There was. Because I think there’s this preconceived idea that our clients aren’t going to want to work with us or that people aren’t going to want to hire us if we don’t have it all together all the time. And it’s just. There’s no way.
Kim Doyal:
And so I just. When things started exploding for me was when was primarily when I launched the podcast. So when I say exploding, I mean really growing a brand and an audience. Because you can’t. I can’t. I’m sure there are people that are not as animated as you and I, but I just am myself. You know, if you meet me in person, I sound just like I do on the podcast. I’m not.
Kim Doyal:
I don’t have the energy or the bandwidth to be something else. So I just kind of baby step my way into it and I’d get more validation and I’d get More appreciation, like you just said. I got a tweet yesterday, she said, and the gal was like, you know, what you’re sharing is reminding me. And it’s so helpful. And, you know, if you look at, you know, there’s. We’re winding the year down there. I love doing year end review stuff. I like reading them.
Kim Doyal:
And a lot of people have been frustrated with this year, but. But also, I’m not somebody. I just, I need balance in my life. And it’s as I’ve gotten older that I found that. So it’s like I cannot be the only one who feels this way. So I just, I stepped into it and it works. It’s just, it’s so much easier too. Like, I’m not worried about does this look this way? This look this way? And it’s taken me a while to step into having an opinion and taking a stance because I don’t know if it’s the recovering Catholic in me of, oh, I don’t want to, you know, piss anybody off.
Kim Doyal:
Not that there’s anything to piss anybody off about, but when I started owning what I like doing that I don’t want to program or develop, and that’s where I started finding my tribe.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, that’s amazing. I just think I was just thinking of when I emailed, I think I was running. Sorry, I was just, Just being reminded that someone emailed you. I think I remember now, probably about three months ago, I think I listened to an episode of yours, what Sounds Running. And again, you’re being very open and honest and raw. And I think I just ended up emailing you, like 50 paragraphs of me spurting out, well, you know, what was going on in our business and how I’ve got people to listen to that episode in the company, etc. To follow what you’re talking. Because it’s so refreshing to get an opinion of somebody who is, you know, just being real.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And, you know, there are people I know who listening to this podcast who are thinking of podcasting, so I would encourage you as well. Don’t feel like you have to have it all together, guys, because none of us do. And actually, it’s really refreshing listening to people who are honest rather than the cook, cookie cutter sort of podcast that people put out there. That kind of sound like everyone’s got it all together and they’ve turned over gazillions of pounds and earn a trillion pounds a second, which actually doesn’t happen, I don’t think in most cases. Be nice though, wouldn’t it trillion pounds a second. I’d work for exactly one second, and then I’d be done. I’d retire for life.
Kim Doyal:
Well, don’t you think that’s what differentiates you, though, Lee, as it’s kind of like with content, you know, I do the same. I have become sort of a fiend for Medium. Do you read anything on Medium?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I don’t.
Kim Doyal:
Oh, my gosh. And I’ve written one post and the post was, no. How do you like this? It wasn’t my. Oh. I said Busy isn’t a badge of honor. It’s. It’s BS and. But I wrote the word out.
Kim Doyal:
But I don’t want to swear on your show. I’m not sure what the audience is.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It’s all right. You’ve already done it twice. So you just carry on now, because I’ll just put. I’ll just put the. Did I. Yeah, you said the P, I, S, S word twice.
Kim Doyal:
Oh, I didn’t know that was a swearing word.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s funny. So let’s tell us the title for real. Okay. Take two.
Kim Doyal:
Okay. So it’s just. Busy isn’t a badge of honor. It’s bullshit. Because I am on this mission of, again, like, finding some balance and making sure my energy goes in the right place. My point, Medium. It’s a great platform. It’s.
Kim Doyal:
It’s. One of the founders of Twitter, I think, created it. But it’s just content. There’s no. It’s just great articles. And where was I going? What, did you ask me about that?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, I think you were telling me something amazing. Well, I talked about building a platform. You’re talking about. Because I would say that, you know, about being yourself and going, you know, launching a podcast, etc. Hope that refreshes the memory.
Kim Doyal:
It totally does go. Because it was, you know, I have just found that. That. That’s where I’m drawn. Right. So I started looking at the articles that. That speak to me, and it’s when someone says, I, I don’t want to be Gary Vee. And God bless him, I think he’s amazing.
Kim Doyal:
I’ve met him once. He’s super nice, but he is, you know, an anomaly. And. And so that’s the only thing that can differentiate you, is to be yourself. Right. Because there’s plenty. I mean, that really. Like what.
Kim Doyal:
What’s. I don’t know what the saying is, but there’s no such thing as a new idea and all of those things. And so it is your voice. Yeah. There is a strategy in terms of you know, it’s not enough about me, what do you think about me? So, but you have to find that balance. And so that’s why I say when I talk about baby stepping into it with content, like, I try to think from the perspective of like, I kind of look at my audience. Although I just did a survey, it was very interesting with my list. But I look at my audience as sort of where I was maybe a few years ago.
Kim Doyal:
And most people want to get out of the time for money. I, without a doubt, I think every single freelancer or service person at some point has said, I cannot continue trading time for money the way I’ve been doing it, whatever that looks like. And so you have to start finding what’s going to work for you. And so I always, I go back to what would have been really helpful for me a few years ago. I would have loved to have heard this or whatever, you know, and I had done some sort of, you know, high end masterminds for a few years. And it’s a little bit refreshing. And this, I don’t know how this is going to sound, but it’s a little refreshing to see sort of the backlash on that model if there isn’t value provided. Right.
Kim Doyal:
It’s not just the privilege. Don’t get me wrong. I have zero regrets about the investment and the experiences. I did some amazing things, connected with amazing people and also learned there are plenty of people out there that will charge, that will pay more for your services or whatever it is you’re offering. But I also kind of hit this wall where I was like, I, this isn’t, this isn’t who I am. It doesn’t resonate with me, which is why I think I didn’t have maybe as much success in that space as I wanted. Does that make sense?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That makes sense. I like the idea though of learning that, you know, people will pay more. I took me a little while to learn.
Kim Doyal:
I think, I think it takes everyone a little bit to learn. You know, at the end of the day it’s, you hear all this stuff about mindset and I mean, that’s sort of the foundation, right? But for me, what was frustrating, challenging, I don’t know. But is there is this appeal? There is this space online of make a zillion dollars and whatever. I mean, like when I started I was like, I’m gonna make a million dollars. Not that specific number, but I’m gonna sell ebooks and it’s gonna be great.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Billion dollars, $1 billion.
Kim Doyal:
Pinky to mouth.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s exactly what I did.
Kim Doyal:
I know you did. And so that’s what I thought, right. Like, I had gone to this Wealth Expo. Quick story. In 2006 with a friend of mine. And this was before the real estate bubble crashed. And I don’t know if, you know, I had a real estate license. I did that for a minute.
Kim Doyal:
For a minute.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Did you say a minute?
Kim Doyal:
For a minute? Because I started doing loans and I was like, well, I may as well do the houses, too. And then it was like, don’t call me at 6 o’ clock to go show you a house. Like, I’ve got dinner with my kids. Like, that does not work for me. But. So we’d gone to this Wealth Expo and it was, you know, like Robert Kiyosaki. And it’s funny, Trump actually spoke and Tony Robbins were there. But there were all these offshoots.
Kim Doyal:
It was by the Learning Annex. I don’t even know if they’re around in San Francisco anymore. But there are all these little, you know, sessions, offshoots. And there was this one on Internet marketing, and this guy was talking about how he was making like, eight, nine thousand dollars a month selling ebooks, like on how to do a kid’s Halloween party, or just random topics, right? And I was like, I can totally do this. Mind you, Lee, I don’t know if I ever told. I was not technical before I started this at all. My husband, God bless him, like, was one of those people that did programming and stuff when he was, like, in eighth grade, you know, way back when, which was for us, like, 1982. But, you know, so it just.
Kim Doyal:
It wasn’t my thing. But I. But I love knowledge and I love learning. And so I thought, okay, I’m going to do this. And then I had listened to, you know, the Chicken Soup for the Soul guys.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, man.
Kim Doyal:
So Mark Victor Hansen had this mega speaking empire. He did this big conference on speaking. And I was totally the audio nut in the car. Like, I had tapes that I always listened to when I was commuting, whatever. And most of them were nonfiction, you know, like Zig Ziglar and Brian Tracy and Dennis Waitley and Tony Robb, like, all that stuff. And I’m listening to when I was commuting, I’m listening to this. And there was another Internet marketer who talked about just Internet marketing. And I remember hearing, like, title tags and stuff.
Kim Doyal:
And I was like, I have no idea what he’s talking about. But I was pulled in again by this possibility. And so I actually hired him as a Coach, which was not a waste of money. But I’m not one of those people, like, don’t tell me. Find a popular topic. I’m not a niche marketer. I’ve tried. Doesn’t suit me.
Kim Doyal:
I got a guy telling me, he’s like, you could do podcasting a network and take a piece and stuff. I said, you know what, I’d rather be the star than the produce. Just going to be really honest with you. Yeah, but you go through all these trials and errors. I’m not sure where I was going with all that, but it was an interesting journey because I really thought I’m going to do information marketing. And I think it took me going through those learning lessons and falling in love with WordPress and not really knowing what I was doing, but just sharing it and talking about it. And the domain name I knew was great when I got it, but that was it and just kind of sticking with it. And more than anything, if I could say anything to anybody, it’s like sticking with it.
Kim Doyal:
But my point to the masterminds and the high ticket stuff is that I have come full circle back to the fundamentals that if anybody listening is questioning or doubting what they should do, where should they should start? Get rid of the tactics for right now. Don’t jump into Facebook ads. Don’t think you need to master Snapchat. Right? Start with content, SEO, consistency, emailing, relationships. And it’s funny because that’s where I felt like was my space. But here I was in this mastermind that was really driven by paid traffic. Mind you, I think paid traffic is gold. So when you can step into it with a solid content strategy and a brand like, be in this for the marathon, right? Be in this for the long haul.
Kim Doyal:
Don’t. Don’t be doing like the quick win, the quick launch like the JVZoos. Right? And, and the sad thing about that
Lee Matthew Jackson:
is some of those plugins disappear within minutes, don’t they as well? If you buy one through there.
Kim Doyal:
But some of them could be good products. Right? But they don’t stick around. They literally. That’s exhausting to me. Can you imagine being in perpetual launch mode? But whatever. So the whole thing is. It was. And it’s funny because.
Kim Doyal:
And just jump in. Leah, cut me off. Which I know you will because I feel like now I’m on a roll.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m enjoying this. Keep going.
Kim Doyal:
Okay, so it was when I hired a Facebook ad agency, I interviewed Jason Hornung and we had connected through the mastermind. And again, it was fascinating. To connect with people who could do six figures on a webinar or whatever. And I’m not saying that’s my goal, right? Like you have to come to this place of what is enough, you know, and what do you want? I want a nice lifestyle, but for me that’s more like I want to go get a massage once a week, then buy a fifteen hundred dollar handbag or something. Right. That doesn’t do anything for me. But. So what was interesting is so I hired Jason.
Kim Doyal:
Well, I just wanted to interview him because he’s built up this Facebook agency and like Neil Patel’s one of their. They’ve run ads for Neil so he knows what he’s doing. But what was cool and it was a very big investment. This is when I was doing. It was literally just a year ago, like almost exactly in December, I hired him.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I remember you telling me about it as well. It’s cool.
Kim Doyal:
And so I was doing this done for you podcast service. Right. So would kind of coach with people and work with them. We would produce, write, market, all that kind of stuff. They literally just had to record. And I have a couple clients still from that. And it worked well. But it was.
Kim Doyal:
Hiring Jason was an investment. And then it was like, okay, I had to spend 2,500 to make a $7,000 sale, so obviously worth it. But you know, last year, and we’ll talk about transitions and stuff, like my salaries and I’m not in an office like you or anything. Leah. I never wanted an agency, but it was like I had so much going out, it felt a little more stressful than I wanted. But my point is, Jason gave me this completely different perspective on stuff. He. When he stepped into this, he dove so intensely into direct response marketing and studying it.
Kim Doyal:
I had never been somebody that really thought I could do copy content. I feel good about copy. I was like, I just decided I’m not a copywriter, right. But yet all of a sudden I started going back and looking at direct response marketing, like books that were written like in the 50s and things that had stood that transition and test of time in terms of people don’t change. I mean, our culture stuff evolves. But the psychological perspective of copy and marketing and what works and what resonates, and I do think a lot of that has shifted because of the level of transparency we can have. But working with Jason, it just. I had this hunger to get really good and mastermind craft, if that makes sense.
Kim Doyal:
And I think there’s a maturity in anyone’s business that that’s going to occur through. And so I thought, well, this is great content. I’m going to share my desire to get better at this stuff. And you know, like. And I swear to you, Lee, the two things that I’ve done this year that I’ve focused only on is learning playing with headlines. And that’s using the CO Schedule headline analyzer and then using the Thrive Leads headline optimizer tongue twisters because that runs split tests. The other one helps you craft the headlines. And so I said, okay, I’m just, I’m going to do this more.
Kim Doyal:
That was it. I didn’t put like massive pressure on myself. And then stepping into email marketing, I was studying it and following it. And again, huge fan of Ben Settle and he’s a daily emailer. Ryan Lee, big he’s been an Internet marketing same thing. And I thought I paid attention and subscribed to Ben Settle for probably a year before I purchased his $97 a month paper newsletter that I adore and devour every month. But just watching how it happened, the engagement that has come from the more frequent I’m calling it my almost daily emails but more frequent email and getting rid of that kind of bse. I don’t wanna say it’s bse, but the regurgitated newsletter, it’s like, I don’t want a newsletter.
Kim Doyal:
Just talk to me. It has totally shifted things. And so all of a sudden and then I go, where can I apply this in my life? Well, what if you just walked every day, right? Or just add a green juice every day, which I like green juice. But so you start applying these small consistent actions that feel so unsexy when you’re doing them. And then all of a sudden it’s like compound interest. You’re like, damn, that stuff really works.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, tell us more about that because I noticed that you have massively increased your emails. So I signed up to your list I don’t know, two years ago maybe. You’ll probably be able to tell me whenever I signed up and I probably got like three emails from you for a long time. And then suddenly about six months ago, maybe this is guess now, but I seem to have had an email from you at least two a week minimum. I’m imagining this is what I feel like and I kid you not, I’ve probably read 90%. There has been the odd one where I’ve not had time and I’ve actually got questions that have bubbled up over the last few weeks that I want to ask you. But the first big question Is is what has been the impact of you sending all of these emails? Other than giving you something else to do in a morning, what is the net result for you for doing all of these emails?
Kim Doyal:
So well, I tripled my affiliate income for my Thrive products one month. So what does that tell you? And because I need to write more
Lee Matthew Jackson:
emails, probably that’s what.
Kim Doyal:
Well, you know what it is though? Too late. Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, and sometimes my goal so the email premise and because Ben Settle sells every single email. So for me, while I’m restructuring offerings or whatever, it’s simply to ensure it’s a story style email with one link. That’s it. I don’t do multiple. It’s one link, one specific call to action. So the net result, first of all, I cannot tell you how many responses I get to emails.
Kim Doyal:
Almost every single email I send I will get few responses, just somebody saying thank you or you know, whatever it is, this was a great email or what about this? Or you know, so. And again, I’m not selling much, to be honest with you. It’s, it’s. For me, it was mastering the craft. Activecampaign, My email provider has become one of my top five traffic sources to my site quickly. So, and here’s the other thing. So then I started looking at, okay, so one, it’s I can churn out content. It’s something I enjoy doing.
Kim Doyal:
And I’ve gotten again better at let’s go back and edit this. Not that there’s not a typo or a sentence that maybe is broken or something, but I take the time and I’m thinking the fact that I can start with a clip from a Christmas story movie that winds then into a link to an affiliate product, it’s like how did that happen? But I’ve been practicing it. And so traffic, obviously, engagement, obviously affiliate sales. I did a little course on creating a Thrive opt in funnel which I haven’t been promoting much. But one week I got eight emails out from a Sunday to a Monday or something consistently. So then the other thing I’ve done is I will then take the daily email and I create a blog post with it and I still have the email I sent about your other show. It’s in draft mode because I got to grab an image. But so that, that has also that drives massive traffic.
Kim Doyal:
So then you start taking these little things and seriously, Lee, it was just, I’m going to do this. I’m committing to doing this for myself. I want to get better at this. And when 2017. This should easily be five days a week because I’m pulling services out of my business, but the results have blown me away. It is next to the podcast, probably the second best thing I’ve done.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Wow. I mean, the one thing I’d noticed about your emails is they were not like newsletters. They were very much like a day in the life of Kim, this is me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, it’s a funny gif, Homer Simpson, you know, that sort of thing. And some sort of call to action at the end. It may not even be necessarily promoting anything. It might just be you giving, you know, letting people know about something amazing. But.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Or even your survey when that link didn’t work that time.
Kim Doyal:
Right. Well, you know what that was? It actually worked the day before. And then the day it was like I’d had a developer doing something. I’m like, why’d you put the page in draft mode? I’m like, let’s put this directly on SurveyMonkey. That’s just it. And so what happens? And I always say this, it’s funny when I’ve had clients before where they’re like, well, don’t share other people’s stuff. And I’m thinking you want people to trust you. So if it’s a value.
Kim Doyal:
And I look at old school marketers and this is sort of the. I don’t know what would date them or whatever, but it’s those old school quote unquote gurus that all they do is promote themselves or their buddies right when they’ve got a big launch going on. That is all to me. I’m like, if I find something that I think is of value to my audience, they’re gonna trust me. It’s not all about me, you know, it’s just like, look, this is what I’m doing and this is what I found. Or try this here’s a free. This here’s a great site I found. And so all of a sudden people find value and they come to me and say, what do you use for this? Or you know, it’s funny, I use.
Kim Doyal:
I am an absolute obsessed fanatic about CO schedule. So that was it. Yesterday was a great example. I didn’t know. I’m like, what are we going to write about? You need to get an email out. And so I thought, okay, let’s talk about co schedule, one of their new features, which is the re queue and to see, because I pay attention. Do you ever use that? It’s HubSpot. It’s a free plugin called Lead in.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Nope.
Kim Doyal:
Okay, so you, you see, it’s, it’s awesome actually. It’s a free plugin and so you’ll get an email every time somebody opts in. Whatever. But you can see the path and what, where they’ve been on your site and so you can see exactly where they’ve opted. You just get an email. So what’s fun is I’m watching now what, what has been re queued and, and I’ve only put, quote unquote, re queued my own content. So I’ve got the podcasts posts and now I’m adding landing pages for different lead magnets. Right.
Kim Doyal:
So I go in and I’m like, this is fantastic. Where we were talking earlier. The gal, I got a tweet yesterday and she was thanking me for being real and honest and stuff. And it was, she shared, she said, I absolutely could not love this post more. She put it on Facebook and Twitter and it was my post on 11 things to stop doing in 2017 to have a phenomenal year. And I published that probably two and a half weeks ago. But I’ve gotten much better at testing and paying attention and through co schedule. So I’m like, put that in the re queue.
Kim Doyal:
Put that in the re queue. Right. And so that’s what I shared. I pulled two screenshots into the email and I don’t know what was this? Oh, it was using what you paid for. Right. Because how many times, speaking of JVZoo, do you buy something and then it sits with the intention to go back to this platform or tool? So that’s part of it is, you know, moving into the new year, I’m like, maximize everything you have right now. Get the content working. Get everything, every asset, every piece of content improved, working better, converting whatever it is before going into something else.
Kim Doyal:
That was very circular. Sorry.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That was brilliant. I love it. And it is. You’re sharing things of value. One of the things you’re doing that I noticed and has inspired me. I have a plan to essentially copy you. Sorry, but I’m sure you don’t mind, which is do emails next year. And I’ve been writing lists of things that I can do based on the sort of stuff I’ve been receiving from you.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So please don’t punch me. I’m sure you don’t mind. Well, one of the things I loved was the fact that you kind of went through your, your, you, you doing some YouTube course and you were pretty much nailing out, hey, this is what I’ve learned Today I was like, oh wow, I don’t have to do the course now. I just got tips.
Kim Doyal:
But that’s just it, right? And I thought about that, right? And that came from transparency, like finding some other guy that was doing this YouTube, the clickbank guy, right? And his, his launch videos were great. They were good stories. It was his background and his growth and whatever. And he actually taught in his launch. So I’m like, this is gonna be really good. Then I got on this webinar mall. This is dumb. And so it’s funny that spending time on this webinar, a friend and I were texting back and forth.
Kim Doyal:
Cause he was watching it too. And he’s the one, he’s like the secret ingredient. One of those people that’s just good at everything he does. It’s methodical. He works at a slower pace than I do, but he’s very methodical and detail oriented. And I was like, dude, you know all this stuff, like this guy sucks. Walk me through it. I’ll be a case study, I’ll document it, we’ll do a course.
Kim Doyal:
And so because that’s just it. And I don’t think I’m gonna create. Cause we debated, I was like, I could do blog posts, but I’m like, no, I’ll share it with my subscribers. That’s a like, so this is a bonus. So coming up with a hundred ideas for videos, right? And then doing the keyword research on it’s like, this is why some people succeed and some people don’t. But my point is it’s just in doing that. So I thought, you know, it’s in finding. Then when I share that, okay, like how many click throughs did I get to this? And some people, like, I think I was sharing tubebuddy and holy moly, that tools is powerful.
Kim Doyal:
And just looking at the process that I’m going through. So people don’t, you know, because you see a marketer, you see somebody that has this launch or they’re dialed and they’re connected or whatever it is, but you don’t know everything that goes on behind the scenes. And so I’m like, screw it, let’s just share it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, it’s great to get that insight. Now you did mention a little while back. So a lot of people listening are same as us over the past, are doing a lot of service based work. So we’re building websites for other people. We’re doing a hell of a lot of paying for our time, that sort of thing. And I remember again, probably six months ago, you kind of had a Kim patented rant, which was awesome. And I think you pretty much threw down the gauntlet and said, that is it. I am done.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I am done with service work. I’m not sure if that’s exactly what you said, but pretty much that was what I got from it. How are you doing in that journey?
Kim Doyal:
It’s taken a while to transition, but it’s done. 2017 is the only type of service I guess I would say is coaching. But it took me a while to get here, obviously. Like, I had one client. She’s like, I heard your podcast. I’m a little scared. And she is a podcast client. I’m like, well, that’s kind of different, you know, But I have had, you know, an outsourcing company and I just.
Kim Doyal:
I’m like, I don’t want to be responsible for anybody else anymore. And what happens? Because one of the things in that 11 things to stop doing. And just because this lady reshared it. I don’t remember the bullet points, but it was number six and it was stop making excuses as to why your client work has to come before you. And you hit a point like where I look over the last year, Lee, and this is, I would say the last year, it’s when my content efforts have increased significantly. Where I want to produce more content. Email and I’m doing sort of these. Mastering the fundamentals.
Kim Doyal:
And so I totally lost my thought mid sentence.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
What was I don’t worry, I’ll edit that. I’ll just slice it all together. Perfect.
Kim Doyal:
What the hell was I saying? What were we talking about? I can’t believe that. I just drew a massive blank. What was I saying at the very beginning of that we would.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, I asked you how you’re. How you.
Kim Doyal:
Okay transitioning.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Okay, okay, you’re back. Welcome back. I might leave my end. That’d be hilarious.
Kim Doyal:
Just do. Wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. So, you know, to get out of the service work, you sort of have to have this exit plan. And so I’ve had this outsourcing company and where people are paying me to use the dev designer. I’ve got teamwork. It’s on what? And it was. The tricky piece was when I started saying because I had a lot of these people on retainers, and I’m like, why am I paying retainers when it should be hourly? And it took me. Part of it is that I felt a sense of loyalty.
Kim Doyal:
They’d been with me for four years. But there comes a point and not that you’re going to relate to this, Lee. But I think anytime a woman, as soon as women hit over 40, they just get like, no, no, not doing it. And it’s taken me a little bit of time. Like I literally just ordered a print that says I’m a grown ass lady and I do what I want.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s brilliant.
Kim Doyal:
But anyways, so I made this decision because my project manager was actually literally one of my best friends from high school and I just. Which she’s brilliant. And there will come a point because I’ve actually got a web app I’m working on with somebody hopefully, but I’d love to bring her.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I was going to ask you about that. I was going to try and pry some details out with you, but anyway,
Kim Doyal:
I’m happy, I’m happy to share, but it was, you know, so I’d love to work with her again and it was brilliant and stuff but she kept all the niggly details running for me. And I don’t like, I get resentful when I get emails from people and it’s all melee. It’s. I am grateful. All the clients I have right now are awesome people. But I want to create content, I want to write, I want to do video, I want to do live streaming, I love podcasting. And so every time I’m building an asset for someone else, it’s ticking, taking me longer to strengthen my own assets. And so it goes back to that just ridiculously old adage of put your oxygen mask on first.
Kim Doyal:
So that’s it. What had happened is a couple people had decided, you know, I’m not going to be using the outsourcing. I don’t have the business anymore. And so I thought, well, this is my exit. This is totally my exit strategy. I have a designer and developer who will continue working with me just personally. But I don’t want to do that anymore. So I will tell you, I’m scared.
Kim Doyal:
It’s nerve wracking, right? Because I’ve had revenue from the outsourcing, I’ve had revenue from projects. But when I look at the cost of some web projects and stuff, because I don’t, I’m sure you do these big, much more involved things, but I like doing. And I would do a site with a client, I would say a coaching client to do like a rebranding and stuff. But even that, it’s not, I refuse to manage it. I don’t want to manage anybody’s stuff anymore. And so, but having people step out of the outsourcing, I was like this is absolutely my exit. And so with the amount of downloads that I’m getting with the podcast, I’ve had sponsorships and just through relationships and connections, my goal. So I will start 2017 looking for two sponsors like a pre roll and a mid roll for the show.
Kim Doyal:
And so that, Because, I mean, that’s kind of a no brainer to get paid for something I’m already doing, I love doing. It’s going to happen regardless. So that, that’s a piece of it. But it’s obviously to increase teaching and training, which I loved doing. And then the next piece. I really believe the holy grail in any online business is recurring revenue. It’s taken me a while to get there, but that’s what I’m doing and that’s where this web app comes into play.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Okay, so tell me more about the web app because you’re very coy about that. You’re in partnership with a young chap called Gordon. But I’ll let you tell us a bit more because you were, you were keeping the ellipse sealed. I wanted to.
Kim Doyal:
I know, and I meant. And you know what’s funny is after that last episode I was like, oops. I said I was gonna say something at the end. I just forgot because the way my brain works. So this came about and it, and this is where for everybody listening and Lee, I’m sure, because I see you developing relationships, you’re very good at it. And it’s something that for any of Lee’s listeners, you can model what he does. I say that all the time. Just pay attention and model before you even invest in stuff.
Kim Doyal:
But Gordon had reached out to me and it’s Gordon Orlich of Web Factory and he’s based in Croatia and they have done, I don’t know, 30 plus plugins or whatnot through CodeCanyon and Envato. And he reached out to me and they do white labeling. Okay, so that’s the little. Hmm. So they do white labeling. They have, they are behind a lot of those JVZoo products, but he can’t stand how that’s marketed. So he’s like, I’m never attaching anything to that. And.
Kim Doyal:
But so it’s interesting. So Gordon reached out to me, I want to say early June because he’s like, look, we’re getting out of Envato, they’ve changed policies, blah, blah, blah. And so I interviewed him for the podcast and he’s funny. Like, I love people that are, you know, direct and witty and sarcastic and so not at other people’s expense. I don’t like mean people. But so Gordon, we just kind of started talking and I said, yeah, absolutely. And he, first of all, it was fascinating. He said how many people didn’t respond, which is funny.
Kim Doyal:
I’m like, you don’t ever. I’ve never just ignored somebody that reaches out. But, but. So we started talking and then he said, do you have an idea? Do you have any ideas for plugins or whatever? And so initially the idea, which is not what we’re doing now, but I was frustrated with the fact that I, I think there should be an easier way to sell something off of a WordPress site without getting into WooCommerce, without, you know, where you could piecemealing stuff together. I’m like, I wanted something that had a beautiful checkout page that connected to an email autoresponder in your payment gateway. But it was also almost like you could create the product in the site. Trust me, like, you know what it’s like to dig into that stuff. For the person who simply wants to
Lee Matthew Jackson:
sell one ebook because they’re getting WooCommerce is a nightmare. If you’re just doing one thing.
Kim Doyal:
Edd is. Or yes, there’s Gumroad and Sells and all those other parties, but still it’s like I want to keep people on my site longer. Right, Right. So that’s kind of where I was looking at it. So anyway, so we kind of started working on it and it come up with logo, but it was like, eh, you know, I, I am, I love following the app space. Right. And I don’t mean phone apps, but I mean web apps. Because the trick.
Kim Doyal:
And I’m sure you’re very aware of this when you. I dip my toes into plugin development a few years ago and it’s kind of a nightmare. Like it’s. You start looking at how many environments you need to test that, make sure it’s working or tweak or whatever. And I was like, nah, don’t, don’t want to do that. But so we had been kind of working on this and Gordon, God bless him, has been so patient with me because I’ve been selling my house. We’re literally closing escrow today. And so, yeah, and so he’s been great.
Kim Doyal:
And I said, look, let’s get on a Skype call, let’s do a touch base. So we were just talking and I said, you know, Gordon, I said, what is, is there a reason that you’ve stuck with plugins as opposed to web apps? Because they’ve got a Full team, the servers, the developer, all that stuff. We just started talking and he was saying how he had actually spent, I don’t know, a few hours with Syed Balki about when they took OptinMonster from a WordPress plugin to a web app. Again, all of my ideas come from the fact that I can’t find the solution that I want. I had come across this. It was simply a modal survey, right? For an opt in for a lead magnet. I’m not talking about. I know you can do surveys with gravity forms, all these things, but the segmenting and tagging of subscribers and doing that from the initial is gold, if you can figure that out.
Kim Doyal:
So I went looking, right? I found this guy and I just, I don’t want to say like where the idea was inspired from. I’ll tell you offline and I’m not trying to be coy, but. So I saw this and it was literally, you clicked just like you would do like a Thrive lead or an opt in box. But it was four steps, that was it, all in the same modal window. And it was, how would you describe yourself? Like author, marketer, blogger, blah blah, blah. Next step two, and it was like two questions, step three, one more and then step four, give us your email and here’s your opt in. And it was clean, it was simple, it was gathering data because you look at like retargeting and how smart the technology can be today. And so I was like, I totally want to do this.
Kim Doyal:
I totally want to do this because I will tell you, I have tested and tried multiple quiz options and now I know quizzes convert, but they’re a pain in the arse to create. You have to step back, you have to be entertaining, you have to be, you know, to come up with a quiz that converts well requires a lot more sort of brain power, for lack of a better word. And I think it prevents people from doing quizzes. And so I was like, okay, there’s gotta be something out here. So it is officially, I will tell you, it’s called leadsurveys IO and so I said there has to be a better way to do this and there’s so much smart technology then that will take somebody. So as an example, if it is, I know pop ups and Google and all that stuff’s changing. But let’s say you’ve got a ribbon or a slide in or a photo ribbon or something if you’ve opted in, also if it shouldn’t be shown to you again, you know, and so there’s some of that stuff, but basically being able to. So it’s going to have conditional logic, but it’s, it’s simple surveys.
Kim Doyal:
I originally I was thinking of a WordPress plugin simple survey opt in which I bought the domain. I’m like, oh, that’s really good. But this. So it was interesting when I did the survey to my audience, Lead generation, I kid you not, Lee was number one.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I remember you said that in your. In fact, I gotta confess, I don’t think I filled in your survey the second time round.
Kim Doyal:
It’s totally all good.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I apologize. But I would have said lead generation is up there on my list of top priorities as well.
Kim Doyal:
Right. And so there’s all these, there’s, there’s. Everybody is always going to want leads. First of all, if you do a web app, you are not just limited to WordPress users. Right? But what fascinates me about it is the opportunity to educate and build relationships. Right. I like I said in that email yesterday, but for the listeners, if you were to look at the evolution of co schedule I was an early adopter and I was like, okay, it’s a pretty editorial calendar. Their stuff looks awesome.
Kim Doyal:
I do love all their stuff, ui, everything. But to have watched the evolution from a minimum viable product and I would have to go back and see if the social sharing was built in from day one, I don’t remember. But to watch the evolution and then the release of the upgrades and the different options and they did like four upgrades recently and so to watch but yet their content is so goodly. And you go to. Don’t let me forget to tell you about a Neil Patel thing that I did with leads too. But to watch how they’ve done that, I’m like, this is awesome. This is where I could shine. So the beauty of the relationship with Gordon is they’re the developers, they’re the coders, he’s got the resources.
Kim Doyal:
Let me run. I may do a podcast for that. But it’s all about connecting and talking to people and finding out where are you stuck. Because I feel like I come from the user perspective because I can’t code one. It needs to look good, but at the same time it shouldn’t be as confusing as infusionsoft. There is no reason today that tools and apps and stuff can’t be more intuitive is my gut. And I don’t want something that somebody who simply wants to capture a little bit better data. You shouldn’t have to get a PhD in it to figure out how to use it.
Kim Doyal:
And so hopefully we’ll have a minimum viable product mid January. Because again, they’ve done a lot of lead generation plugins and tools, so they’ve got a lot of the code pulled together. And so, you know, because originally we were going to focus on doing content. Like, I’ve got the WordPress chick, but I’m like, I’m in this full time, right? Like, obviously I’m keeping my WordPress chicken podcast going, but. But they marry very well. And it’s something that. Don’t get me wrong, Lee, I’m scared too. This is an entirely new space to me.
Kim Doyal:
So we’ll be on Skype and he’ll update me and to learn how people do their pricing tiers, to learn how it’s like, well, for every call to the server or this, and he’s coming back where it’s like, well, they’re telling you you only get 2,000 impressions. He’s like, that’s crap. Or you only get this. And so I think there’s opportunity in all those frustrations that I see and that he’s seeing to be able to explain to a user, this is why you’re going to pay what you’re going to pay and this is why we’re going to deliver this to you or when. And I’m not going to call out, but there’s a quiz company that has lead generation stuff, but it’s like the only integration for autoresponders is Zapier. So then there’s that cost, right? And I’m like, no, we have to offer Zap from the beginning, but let’s start with say, four companies and then we’ll continually add, continually add and, you know, keep. So it’s. I’m like, wow, this is like a SaaS.
Kim Doyal:
We’re doing a startup and it’s a whole new space for me, but I feel that my obsession with things being easier for people to use and the fact that there is so much more opportunity with smart technology, right? Like showing it to someone who’s already subscribed or not, or having the opportunity to show them something different. So I just, I’m really excited.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So that’s leadsurveys IO. We’re gonna be keeping Ariane, is that right?
Kim Doyal:
Leadsurveys IO. Yeah. So by the time this goes live, there will be a landing page for it. And so it’s kind of the same thing. It’s like, all right, so the goal is to get 100 users at a lifetime price. Like, obviously they’ll get everything. We’ll do A Facebook group, engagement, conversations, webinars, whatever. Again, I watch coschedule to me has just done it brilliantly.
Kim Doyal:
They had an awesome webinar yesterday on, you know, different times to post. And again they’re, they’re promoting people signing up because the Re Queue feature is an add on. And now with co schedule, I do referrals because they don’t really have an affiliate program, although Pat Flynn is an affiliate. But. So I don’t even pay for one of my calendars. And the Re Queue, I got it free because I have so many referrals and. Right. So it’s.
Kim Doyal:
I’m like, okay, so but I, but I attend their webinar and I watch how they teach and what they share, and that’s sort of my guideline. But then I was talking to a friend who also sent me this like a product validation kind of thing through the Lean Startup with Eric Reese. So I’m like, okay, I’m gonna read this. And, and you know, the thing is, Lee, like, I’m not interested in becoming. I don’t want to go rent offices. I like, I want to stay remote. But at the same time, I think there’s a great opportunity for this.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And there you have it. The end of episode 58, but certainly not the interview with our conversation with Kim. So over that conversation, you may not be aware that we had an awful lot of technical difficulties having to use multiple ways to continue the conversation and to be able to record as well. So I think we used a combination of Skype and Zoom. So over this and. Or next week, if you hear any weird glitches, just be aware that, you know, we still spoke on despite all that was thrown at us. So next week, you know it. You’ve got Kim Doyle again for a second week in part two.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So I guess get your calendars out, start counting down, and we will see you you in episode 59 and in between, then keep innovating. Cheerio. Bye.
