90 - An Introduction To The Page Builder Framework

Note: This transcript was auto generated then some poor soul sat and listened to it, and followed through correcting any mistakes they spotted. Please however expect human error and shout if you spot an issue. Email: lee [fancy curly symbol] trailblazer.fm.

Verbatim text

Lee:
Welcome to the WP Innovator Podcast, the podcast for web designers and design agencies, exploring the world of WordPress and online business. And now your host, Lee Jackson.
Lee:
Welcome to episode number 90 of the WP Innovator Podcast. This is your host, Lee. And today, I’m going to be interviewing the brainchild behind the WP Page Builder Framework. Now, before we do continue, over the last month of August, I’ve been putting out there a vlog every single day full of super cool content of stuff we’ve learned over the years. So if you can go ahead, check that out, see if you like the content, go and join in some of those conversations. That’s over on angledcrown.com forward slash YouTube. That’s a redirect. Or just tap in WP Innovator into YouTube and you will find the channel. Subscribes, likes, and all of that good stuff would be greatly appreciated as we diversify the media that we put out as a business. So hopefully you’ll find that content useful. If you want to see content in the future over there as well, go ahead, let us know either via the Facebook group directly through a message or in the comments on any of those videos, because we are going to be keeping our eye on those. We’ve got a content plan coming out as well over from mid-September onwards. So you guys can help influence that by getting in touch. Alrighty, guys, sit back, relax, enjoy the show. And please, please keep your hands, arms, legs, heads, and all other appendages in the vehicle at all times.
Lee:
Hello and welcome to the WP Innovator podcast. This is Lee and you are joining a conversation with me and David Vongries. David, how are you today?
David:
Hi, Lee. I’m great. How are you?
Lee:
I’m doing wonderful. Little does the world know this is actually our second or third attempt.
David:
Third, actually.
Lee:
Recording this podcast. We had a podcast, didn’t we, maybe a few months ago, back when you were working on a whole load of stuff. We’re totally messed it up.
David:
Yeah, we’ve just tried to do 20 minutes now and the call recorder crashed. So we’ve all restarted our machines and hopefully on this third time, it will be third time’s a charm.
Lee:
Yes. And we can really rock on. Guys, if you don’t know who David is, a very good friend of mine. We are Snapchat buddies. So I reckon we Snapchat each other practically every day. And it’s usually a picture of our coffee with our cheesy mugs or the food that we are currently eating. And poor old David, was it last week or the week before you went for a whole week or something or tried to go for a whole week without meat?
David:
Yes, I tried it, but I failed it.
Lee:
You failed?
David:
Yeah, absolutely.
Lee:
I don’t think I helped. I sent him a whole picture.
David:
Yeah, yeah.
Lee:
No, really. I really tried to do that.
David:
Yeah.
Lee:
And bought all the healthy stuff. Not that I’m not eating healthy, but yeah, I tried only to eat vegetables and at day four or five, my stomach just felt really bad. And yeah, I just went back to it.
Lee:
I do apologize. So I sent David on day four, I think it was, or day three. I was at a barbecue and I had a whole bowl full of sausages and burgers and steaks and chicken. And I just sent a picture of it to David over Snapchat. So I do kind of feel a bit responsible for your failure there. And I am very sorry, but I’m not sorry at the same time because it was also really funny.
David:
Yes.
Lee:
Guys, if you don’t know who David is, like I said, he’s a mate of mine. He’s a Snapchat buddy of mine, but he’s also an amazing WordPress developer. He’s the author of some leading WordPress plugins that are phenomenal. He’s also the author of the WP Page Builder Framework, which is a really cool WordPress theme that is compatible with all of the leading page builders. We’re going to talk about that later. I use it as well. So I highly recommend you go check that out. Link in the show notes. And he is also the founder of MapSteps, which is an online branding and web design business. So that’s my introduction, mate. But would you like to just say hi to everyone and give people a little bit of background? Where are you from? What’s your favorite color? Maybe your favorite band or music style? Let’s just give the listeners a flavor for who is David Vongries.
David:
Yes. So my name is David Vongries. I’m from Germany. I live in Aschaffenburg. This is near Frankfurt. And I’m a WordPress developer marketer. Yeah, for like seven years now.
Lee:
Seven years. You don’t look old enough, mate.
David:
Yeah, I’m only 27, but I started early.
Lee:
And how did you get into web design in the first place?
David:
As I finished my apprenticeship back in, I don’t know when it was, but after I finished it, I had to get a job. And we are in a small city here. And there are not many web agencies or agencies in general that are hiring people. So I worked in another industry and started my company in 2010 just on the side as a side project. And yeah, that’s how I started.
Lee:
Now, I remember when we chatted in the past that you mentioned you’d actually started with your apprenticeship in a design agency. What were you doing in that design agency?
David:
I learned about all that print stuff. And I didn’t really get in the web industry. But after I finished that, I was really interested in all that web stuff. And yeah, became a self-taught developer.
Lee:
Self-taught developer. I think, though, a print background is something that’s very unique. I get the impression from your voice that you didn’t enjoy print necessarily. Am I right?
David:
No, yeah, you’re right.
Lee:
But I do think you’re having some grounding in print design, you know, in the kind of old school design arena is very good, especially for things like fonts, typesetting, good use of negative space, all of that sort of stuff. I think it’s really essential to have a good design background. And personally, you know this, I’ve told you in the past, but I am a huge fan of your work, especially when it comes to design. So guys, if you check out mapsteps.com, just take a look. I love the typography. I love the negative space. You’ve got really high quality imagery on there. You are clearly a very good designer. And also, if you check out wp-pagebuilderframework.com as well. Again, I’ll put the links in the show notes for all of these links. Again, I just love the branding. Clearly, your favorite color is blue. But I love the branding. I love the layout. Everything is just so well done. So, you know, despite you not enjoying the print background, I believe it’s really helped you.
David:
Yes.
Lee:
So like you said, you started MapSteps as a kind of a side project. What industry were you working in before you started MapSteps?
David:
Oh, I wish I would know how this is called in English.
Lee:
Okay.
David:
I was just working in the back office. It was my stepfather’s business back in the days.
Lee:
So that would be like administration in England. And I don’t know what it would be in America. Maybe it would be back office or administration in America as well.
David:
Yes.
Lee:
So MapSteps was your side hustle. I think they call that. I’m sure that’s what they call that in America. And so how did you start MapSteps? What was your first sorts of projects?
David:
Actually, the company wasn’t called MapSteps.
Lee:
Yes. I rebranded my company in early 2015. And then it became MapSteps. Before it was, it had a different name, which you can translate into English. And yeah, my first projects were just the basic client work you do as an agency.
Lee:
So what? Basic web builds?
David:
Yes. All that kind of stuff. Developing logos and mostly websites.
Lee:
So logos, websites, branding. Now, I’ve noticed over time you’ve started to develop plugins and themes. Am I right in saying you want to kind of transition MapSteps from a traditional web design branding agency into more of a product service?
David:
Yes.
Lee:
So how is that journey going?
David:
Yeah, I realized that I didn’t enjoy the client work anymore that much as I used to in the past. And I tried to find ways how I can transition to something else. And then I started to work on a plugin and realized, okay, that’s something I really enjoy and other people can benefit from it. So I tried to sell it online.
Lee:
And what was that plugin?
David:
At that time, it was Ultimate Dashboard.
Lee:
I remember the Ultimate Dashboard.
David:
Yeah.
Lee:
That was about a year ago, a year or two ago?
David:
Yeah, I think about one and a half year ago.
Lee:
Yep. That’s a long time, mate. In the world of the web, that’s a long time. I remember that came out. Guys, if you don’t know what Ultimate Dashboard Pro is, again, check out mapsteps.com and go into the shop area. You’ll see that. So what made you create the Ultimate Dashboard plugin? Because surely there must have been a problem you were trying to solve. What inspired you to start that plugin?
David:
Yes, I was working on me sites at that time. And I wanted to, for our clients, I wanted to have a dashboard, a WordPress backend dashboard with a more meaningful, what does it say?
Lee:
Meaningful experience, I guess?
David:
Interface?
Lee:
Yeah.
David:
Yeah. Thank you. And so because our clients were not interested in WordPress events, you know, or the Yoast dashboard widget that pops up, you know. So I replaced the whole dashboard with useful quick links, basically. So you can choose an icon and define a link and that’s it. So it simplifies.
Lee:
Brilliant. And certainly something that’s good for agencies as well.
David:
Yes.
Lee:
One of the things we tend to do, especially with the event websites that we build in my other business, is we strip out all of the WordPress widgets because it’s super confusing for a client. And we just give them, we essentially give them the one, two, three steps that they need to do to manage their website along with videos and information kind of all loaded into the dashboard. So it’s definitely a good problem to solve. And that was your first plugin. Obviously, you’ve gone on to build tons more, which is so cool. One of my favorites is your sharing plugin. One of the reasons why it’s my favorite is because it’s free. Guys, go check out ShareBearPro. It’s a very cool plugin with a beautiful little teddy bear who will lovingly share all of your blog posts via attractive icons on your blog. And that is totally free as well, which is pretty cool.
Now, you did mention MeSites. And I remember when you launched this. But would you just like to tell people what MeSites was and is and why you started it?
David:
Yeah. MeSites basically is a multi-site network where people, you can compare it to Wix or Weebly. So people can go on MeSites.com and choose their predefined layout and can just start building their website with it. They can just sign up and then start dragging around the content. And, yeah, it’s basically built on a few other plugins and the Beaver Builder drag-and-drop page builder plugin.
Lee:
And we love Beaver Builder on this podcast.
David:
Yes.
Lee:
And you obviously do. I remember when it came out because it was, in fact, it was, I feel like MeSites was the first time I got to hear about you. Because there was a lot of press when you first launched. Because you were one of the first people who recognized that Beaver Builder could actually be utilized in such a way, along with WordPress, to compete with the Weeblies of the world and the Wixers of the world. Because people will say, oh, no, WordPress is too complicated. But you created a multi-site network with the beautifully easy-to-use Beaver Builder. And I thought that was a really, really clever idea. So kudos to you.
David:
Thank you.
Lee:
And, yeah, I certainly remember. But now, obviously, me and you talk on Snapchat a lot. We talk a lot offline. So I’m aware that MeSites is not something that you are pushing, either as much or any more. But I do understand that you’ve decided to do something different with that model. Could you just describe what that is and why?
David:
Yeah, okay. I realized when MeSites was out there, I had to do a lot of marketing. And that’s the thing. As a developer, you’re just not thinking of why you’re developing something, you know?
Lee:
Yeah.
David:
And that way MeSites was branded, I would have to compete with Weebly and Wix and all this kind of services. In Germany, we have Jimdo, which just requires a marketing budget over I don’t know how many, you know? And that’s the thing. And that became a problem.
Lee:
Yeah. So many people from our industry signed up because they were curious what I did, but it was not that easy to attract real clients. Also because there are a few downsides on a multi-site installation that you can’t install your own plugins and you can’t choose your own themes and all that kind of stuff. Made it really hard. What was your next best step? So if you’ve got multi-site, it’s a bit inflexible and you can’t really, as a very small company, compete with huge companies like Wix. What was your next logical step?
David:
Yeah, I think a multi-site network like that is still great, but you have to just niche it down to something very specific. And at that time, I finished MeSites. A good friend, now Grant Conscious, reached out to me and we started working together on another network called Happy Tans, which is basically for people that can just go and sign up for their own spray tanning website.
Lee:
So this is very niche. This is companies that specialize in spray tanning, presumably who either have a bricks and mortar building or are mobile spray tanners, can sign up to happytans.net.com. What is it, Happy Tans?
David:
It started as .biz, but we are actually right now rebuilding the whole thing and moved it to happytans.com.
Lee:
Perfect. And what I love about this concept is that, number one, it’s super niche. So you are talking to a very small audience and I understand, therefore, that this means you don’t have to worry about lots of extra plugins, etc. You only need to activate the plugins and the services that a tanning company would need. Therefore, you’re not trying to make MeSites, which was something for everybody. So a website would be very different with regards to their requirements. Once you’re making something, which is almost like a cookie cutter prescribed website for your clients and they don’t have all the stress of WordPress. So, guys, if you run a tanning business, which I really doubt it, but if you do, head on over to happytans.com. Why tanning companies?
David:
I’m intrigued.
Lee:
My friend Grant is from that business. He worked at a company back then and, yeah, he figured out that this is the thing we should do.
Lee:
Okay.
David:
And this is actually going pretty well compared to MeSites.
Lee:
Yeah. That’s brilliant. And I see you also launched a podcast. Does he run the podcast?
David:
Yes, he does.
Lee:
That’s fantastic. So on episode 16. So, again, head on over to happytans.com. And if you click on podcast and you’re into tanning, then go and enjoy their podcast as well. How has that podcast helped that business?
David:
Actually, I’m not really that much into the podcast.
Lee:
Okay.
David:
And all that marketing stuff. I’m more the technical background. Basically, I’m the CTO of all that. I’m taking care of the network and that kind of stuff. And he’s more into that marketing.
Lee:
So I feel like we now need to kick you off the show and get your colleague in to talk about the podcast.
David:
Yes, definitely.
Lee:
I’m messing with you. So do you have any plans to go into any other industries with this model?
David:
Yes, we do. But we didn’t figure out in which area we want to go right now. So it takes some time and then slowly progress.
Lee:
I guess as well, that gives you time to learn a lot on Happy Tans. You’re only into episode 16 on the podcast. So I guess you probably want to give this a bit more time to grow it out. You never know. This could be the one thing you need.
David:
That would be amazing.
Lee:
Yep. And regarding the multi-site, we had a lot of problems with the old network. Because I don’t know if you know the ProSites plugin.
David:
Yep. I know and I loathe it.
Lee:
Yes. I know what you mean. That’s why we are rebuilding the whole thing. We are now not using ProSites anymore. We switched to Pippin’s Restrict Content Pro plugin.
David:
I think this may be interesting for some of the listeners. Please, yeah.
Lee:
And we created our own plugins to duplicate sites on the network and have that whole setup.
David:
No, because we had a lot of issues with the ProSites plugin and payment failed. Stripe did crazy things. And I don’t know. So we had to rebuild the whole thing on a service or software we really can rely on, you know.
Lee:
Well, that’s a fascinating story. And I’m definitely going to be watching how you guys do with Happy Tans over time. And maybe in a year’s time when things have progressed, you’ll come back on the show and let us know all the lessons that you guys have learned along the way doing such a niche product. That is so cool. And guys, if you are thinking of this, I remember all episodes ago, this was something that I said you could do. It was maybe it was in the tip episodes. I can’t quite remember. But I did point out that with the advent of something so high quality as Beaver Builder or even as Elementor as a page builder, the fact that we do have WordPress multi-site, etc. There are opportunities to create Wix style competitors in particular niches. And I just love what David and his colleague are doing here, creating something that is super niche. And I can’t think of anything more niche than tanning businesses because it is not the first thing that I would have thought of. So that is so cool. And I applaud you, mate, for everything that you’re doing there. Now, I know you’ve got a bug for development. It’s very obvious. And I know Happy Tans obviously is a project you’re loving. Me site, you threw all of your geek code into, etc. But tell me about the page builder framework. What’s that all about?
David:
This story still starts with me sites. I didn’t want to rely on other software when it comes to a theme which people could use on the network. So I started creating my own theme. I later realized that many people in the groups are looking for a good theme to use with their page builder. Because most of these themes out there, they are pre-configured and they come with a lot of stuff and pre-built pages and sections you can change and do and everything. But using a page builder, you don’t really need these sections or, you know, and that’s where the page builder comes in. So it only takes care about these areas of your website you usually cannot touch with a page builder. I say usually because we now have Beaver Theme. Yeah, but that’s the reason I created that framework.
Lee:
So guys, with the page builder framework, the beauty of it, it’s actually something we’ve started to adopt as a business for ourselves. Because it’s like the best bits of the Beaver Builder theme. So it’s got that sort of flexibility, but it works with pretty much any page builder that you can imagine. So that works with Divi and it also works with Elementor. So we’re currently building, for example, our new podcast, which is the Walt Business Podcast. We’re actually using the page builder framework for that website along with Elementor because we want to try both out and it works really well. And one of the most common questions I’ve seen in the Elementor community is what theme do I use with the Elementor page builder? So I would highly recommend, guys, if you haven’t checked out the page builder framework, then go and have a look in the show notes. WP-pagebuilderframework.com. Go check that out. It’s a very useful tool. Like I said, we’re using it to great success. So I am loving seeing the plugin output, David, that you keep putting out there. Do you have any other plans for future plugins? Can you tease us with any other ideas you’ve got?
David:
Oh, yeah. For the page builder framework, I wanted to create a up and down load plugin.
Lee:
Okay.
David:
And I was looking for something that works, but I couldn’t find a good solution. So I started to create my own plugin. Like that’s basically the reason why I created all my plugins, because I was looking what’s on the market and I didn’t really like these plugins that were out there. So I started to create my own because most of them were bloated or had features in it, which I didn’t like. And I want to keep it simple and, you know, I really care about page speed and all that stuff. And I hate unnecessary code being loaded. So I think you know what I’m talking about.
Lee:
Amen.
David:
And yeah, and that’s another plugin I’m currently working on. This is a up and down load plugin, basically to collect feature requests from a website.
Lee:
That’s brilliant. I can’t wait to see that. I like that you don’t necessarily go to purchase a plugin to solve a problem. I like that you are wired in such a way that you want to build your own. And that is, I think it’s something, if you are a developer, it is something that’s very useful. If you can build the feature that you need rather than opting straight away to purchase a plugin, it does mean that you kind of have control of the code. You also know how it works and you know where to go to fix things. I think one of the problems that we’ve had in the past is if we tried to do a shortcut on a project and we’ve used a third party plugin, like you said, it will be loaded with extra features and it will be bloated. But also when there’s a problem, two things that we struggle with is we don’t know where to go and fix something necessarily, especially if that third party hasn’t got very good support. But also we don’t necessarily know how to use the plugin because it is so complicated. There’s so many features. So, you know, trying to opt for simple, I think is a very good path to go down. And I think we can learn a lot from your example, David. Now, over the years, you started imprint, you’ve run a branding and web design agency. You are now starting to create products and sell products. And you’re also running a software as a service business as well. So you’re a very busy man. Is there anything that you’ve learned over the last few years that you would like to share with people?
David:
Oh, I think I learned a lot over the last few years. Well, how about give us a few of those? Teach us, please.
David:
I think what I learned with me sites is that you should not build that plugin until it’s perfect or your product until it’s perfect. You should rather just put it out there and see if it’s needed or if people are interested in it. But because I spent a lot of time creating me sites and had to figure out that no one’s actually interested in it. I think that’s a big thing. I tend to be perfectionist.
Lee:
Does that word exist?
David:
Yeah, that’s right.
Lee:
Great. And what I learned from my colleague from Grant is that sometimes you just need to push it out there. Don’t, you know, look for every single detail before you publish something. Just put it out there. This is one of the main things I’ve learned.
Lee:
I will echo that and people who’ve been listening to the podcast for the last few years will know that I created a product and spent, I think, probably two years building it. And when I finally got to putting it out there on the World Wide Web, I think I sold two and I actually had to refund one. So in theory, I only sold one.
David:
Is it that Twitter plugin?
Lee:
Yes.
David:
Yeah, because I was looking for it a few months ago and I couldn’t find it anymore.
Lee:
That’s because I took it offline because I realized that I’d missed a whole load of people. I basically, I thought I was being clever by just making something that was only for Twitter and I was wrong. And since then, I’ve changed tack. I’ve got lots of advice from local agencies and lots of thoughts, etc. I’ve got people who are actually interested in purchasing a new version of what we’re doing on a completely different license structure. But the difference, I guess, this time is that I’ve been validating it. And also, we’ve not been waiting until it’s perfect. Like you said, my problem was I was trying to wait until it was perfect. So yeah, I took Social Press down. I was going to open source it a few months ago until someone reached out after listening to that episode with a few ideas. And it made me realize that actually the project was still savable, but I definitely needed to change how I approach things. So rather than just doing everything from my brain of what I thought people needed, I needed to actually start talking to other people. That’s a massive lesson, mate. What else have you learned? Because you said loads, so I’m expecting loads of lessons now.
David:
What you just said, I think it’s challenging. You have to think about a pricing structure. You have to think about what do people need. And you can’t collect that much feedback. I mean, not everyone can if you ain’t got a big reach.
Lee:
Yeah, and it’s tough. I also figured out that a few of my plugins, which I thought that were great and would really sell, they failed. While others went just great. Like that pop-up plugin I created now has, I think, almost a thousand active installs. It’s not that much, but this is one of the more popular plugins I created.
David:
Is that the Yo! Notification bar?
Lee:
No, this is the responsive YouTube and Vimeo pop-up plugin.
David:
Oh, right. Okay.
Lee:
Again, head on over to mapsteps.com and click on shop. You’ll find them all in there.
David:
This is also available on the repo, on the official WordPress repo.
Lee:
Yeah. And I think all that stuff is challenging if you can’t get enough information of your potential clients. Awesome. What have you learned during the HappyTan lifecycle? So you learned from MeSites that you are to just launch. Have you learned anything recently with the HappyTan setup?
David:
I think it again comes down to have a niche product. I mean, that’s the thing that made it successful if you compare it to MeSites.
Lee:
Yeah. So David, you were saying that obviously with MeSites, kind of learned that not to be a perfectionist. Have you therefore translated that same lesson across all of your plugins as well with HappyTans? Or do you still fight the inner perfectionist?
David:
I still fight.
Lee:
How do you overcome it?
David:
Yeah, it’s just I got so much work to do. I just sometimes have to push something out. You know, I can’t spend the whole time on something. Actually, yesterday I had set one day around to fix one problem. And then I had to leave it as it is.
Lee:
Yeah. So just by necessity and busyness, finally has forced you to fight the inner perfectionist and sometimes just make do. I can’t remember what the phrase is, but someone said that great is better than perfect. I think that’s what they said. Something along those lines or even good is better than perfect. It definitely is. Because I think perfect is an impossible standard anyway.
David:
Yes, it is.
Lee:
Therefore, great is still very, very good.
David:
Yeah. It really wonders me that I’m still happy with my MapSteps website, actually. You know?
Lee:
I’m proud of you, man. That’s great to hear.
David:
Yeah.
Lee:
Like I said, I can’t remember when I said this to you, but designers are the worst for being self-critical, aren’t they?
David:
Yes. It’s crazy.
Lee:
Mapsteps.com. You can check out all of the wonderful treats that David has been creating over the last few years. Recommend you go ahead and click on shop. Go and have a look at his plugins in there. Also recommend you go and check out the Page Builder framework. I believe you’re going to be white labeling it in the future, are you, as well, for agencies to use?
David:
It is already.
Lee:
It is already?
David:
Yeah. Since the latest update.
Lee:
Nice.
David:
Like one week ago, five days ago.
Lee:
Yeah. Happy days. Can I white label it?
David:
Brilliant. I white label that as well, which is good news for me because, you know, not that I’m not proud to use the Page Builder framework, but I just don’t want some extra questions where people say, what’s that? Is that a theme? And I’m like, no, it’s not a theme necessarily. Oh, forget it. So I’m very happy. Mate, thanks so much for being on the show. How can people connect with you via social media?
David:
You can find me on Facebook. I’m on Twitter, but not that active there. Yeah. I think the first way is Facebook or, yeah, Snapchat.
Lee:
And Snapchat. All right. What we’ll do then is we’ll put your links in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time, mate. And like I said, I’d love to get you back on maybe in a year’s time after you guys have had all of that experience with Happy Tans, maybe get you and your colleague on. We can talk about, you know, how has that niche worked for you guys? What have been the lessons along the way? And I’d also love to see how the podcast continues to grow for you guys as well, because like with this podcast, I just think there’s so much power in podcasting. So, mate, have a wonderful day and go and eat some meat.
David:
Thank you, Lee.
Lee:
Lee, thanks for having me. And I’m glad we finally made that.
David:
Me too.
Lee:
All right, brother. Talk to you later. Bye.
David:
See you.
Lee:
And that wraps up episode 90. Next week, episode 91. We’re talking with Chris Mason from WooCurve. You go check out what he’s up to over on WooCurve.com. Don’t forget, if you’re not part of the Facebook group, head on over to WPInnovator.com forward slash group. Also, if you want to check out what we’re doing on YouTube, then tap in WPInnovator into YouTube or check the show notes for a link. You’re all awesome. You’re all legends. See you next week.
Lee:
Don’t know what that was. Kind of cool. All right. See you next week. Toodles.