Note: This transcript was auto generated then some poor soul sat and listened to it, and followed through correcting any mistakes they spotted. Please however expect human error and shout if you spot an issue. Email: lee [fancy curly symbol] trailblazer.fm.
Verbatim text
Rob:
Welcome to the Trailblazer FM podcast.
Lee:
This is your host, Lee, and on today’s show, audio only because he’s far too handsome for it, it’s the one and only Rob Cairns. Mate, how are you doing?
Rob:
I’m great, Lee, and thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure to catch up with you. We share so much It’s so much fun.
Lee:
I know, including, and again, audio only, but the same hairstyle as well. We’re both Follically challenged for those who don’t know us both. Rob, you’ve been bringing 25 years now of tech experience, I think probably more, and you don’t look old enough, to the world through your business, through your podcast, et cetera. So could you just tell folks a little bit about yourself? And then we’re going to launch into some questions I’ve got for you, mate.
Rob:
Yeah, It’s funny. I started off as a programmer in the insurance business many, many, many years ago, then transformed into tech support after doing that for six years, and then opened my own agency in 2010. I’ve been running the agency for about 16 years. I started as a web-only agency, but the reality is, you can’t have a website if you don’t market it. We’ve done full-scale marketing with a very strong influence in WordPress security. That’s where I’m at right now.
Lee:
Nice. When you say marketing, do you mean you provide the entire package now? You do still do the website, but you’re providing the whole service around that.
Rob:
Yeah, correct. Because there’s no point in having a website if you’re in traffic and you don’t get leads, which generates sales, which lead to business. So having a website is nice, but It’s not the end all ends, frankly. No.
Lee:
I mean, people think, don’t they? Build it and they will come and then nobody does.
Rob:
Yeah, it doesn’t work that way.
Lee:
Do talk to us about that, though, because I would like to approach this as, as you know, my own experience being a burned-out podcast host, a burned-out business leader, a burned-out dad, etc. When we’re looking at the marketing advice, particularly, and you talk about this on your website, the marketing advice for small business doesn’t necessarily work and feels completely overwhelming. I think you mentioned somewhere being everywhere is not a strategy, for example, or something along those lines. Could you just share with us why you feel most generic marketing advice out there doesn’t really work for the regular business?
Rob:
Because I don’t think most marketers actually do research and they take the attitude, You need to be everywhere. You need to be on X. You need to be on LinkedIn. You need to be on Facebook. What they really should break down is look at where their target market is. So if your target market is sitting on, say, LinkedIn, I would emphasise my time on LinkedIn. And look at where your competitors are, too. I can’t tell you the number of businesses that do not do competitor analysis. I also can’t tell you the number of businesses that do not have Google business pages. I just shake my hand. I have a client in the local Toronto area that’s a jewellery store independent, and he outranks the national chains on Google business pages every day, all day. There is value to doing things like that. You got to think out of the box sometimes, and a lot of marketers don’t want to do that.
Lee:
No, I hear you. How do you do that competitive research, though, because I want to have a first clue half the time of what I’m meant to do. I don’t even know half the time who my competitors are. How do I… I mean, at least for me as an agency, it’s a bit, I guess, a bit harder. I don’t know.
Rob:
Yeah. First thing I would do is sit down and do some Google searches and find out what competitor. Let’s take the jewellery store, for example. You can do search, traditional search, to find out what stores are in your area. Then the other thing I like to do is I take an email address that’s not on my domain, not on their domain, and I sign up to all my competitors’ email address, email list, right away. Then I know what offers they’re putting out there. I’ll even go so far, and I’ve done this before, I’ll get somebody They make cold calls and say, Okay, what’s your pricing for this, this, and this? Do you offer that? Sometimes doing things the old traditional way is the best way, and the phone is a good way. Then you can do some SEO analysis with SEO tools and find out what they’re doing, look at their website, see what services they’re offering, et cetera. That’s a basic start.
Lee:
Well, I mean, that’s a good basic start. To be fair or frank, I don’t know which, I look online, I follow a lot of these big influencers, and I just feel, generally, and have felt in the past, overwhelmed. The big push is content marketing, it’s funnels, all of these strategies to drive high volumes of traffic down very specific channels and get someone in with a low cost item here and then upsell them this and create more content and put them on a course or whatever else. It is just a complete minefield. It’s certainly something that burned me out. And yet I look at the past clients I’ve had and realised that probably 90% of those came from good old fashioned networking, which is like physical in-person networking with breakfast?
Rob:
100%. I think good old networking events matter. I think referrals matter. New client for an auto body shop, and I’ve taken on because he He’s good friends with one of my best friends who needed something and needs somebody he trusts. Remember, people work with people they like, not the services you offer. The services you offer, I offer, are all transparent. We can take them and drop agency name in here. The reality, it’s you and I that bring to the table what we do.
Lee:
That’s funny, actually, because I keep getting asked to do things that I don’t actually have on my website. But I think, again, that’s because people just to show you’re working with me.
Rob:
Yeah, it’s true. I spent a long time in the hardware business, and I swore I would stay out of it. What have I done in the last four months? Five hardware upgrade jobs. I’m working on it right now. Really? Yeah. I finally gave up and put it back on the website.
Lee:
Oh, no. Well, if the demand is there, I guess, why the heck not? What do you think then tends to burn people out the most when it comes to just marketing in general?
Rob:
I’ll tell you what it does. Entrepreneurs don’t know how to outsource and say, I need help. That’s the biggest thing.
Lee:
Me again, there.
Rob:
Me too. I have a theory. If I don’t like doing it, get somebody to do it for me. If I’m not good at doing it, get somebody to do it for me. If I’m good at it, it makes me money, do it myself. That’s my theory.
Lee:
If I’m good at it, but it makes no money as well, still get somebody else to do it.
Rob:
Correct. So one of the things we see, not even just in the marketing spec, but even in the WordPress spec is you’ve looked at a million websites, I’ve looked at a million websites. How many websites are up to date? How many people How many people have done their patches? How many people have kept their plugins up to date? Not very many. And the reality of it all is, so if you’re not going to do it, pay somebody because the website comes down. It’s an issue for your reputation, for your business. So don’t do that. That’s a good example. Exactly.
Lee:
Now, you mentioned in your site as well, email. I’ve heard so many people talking about email being dead and that, again, it’s paid ads and social media, et cetera. That is the future. So you still use email. Why?
Rob:
Because it’s still effective. I’ve got clients where I’m getting 40% open rates, even my own. That’s crazy. Now, you can do email in a couple of ways. You can do a traditional email programme like a Mailchimp or a MailerLite. You can go to a more complex auto responder where you can set up funnels. Or you can even go to something like Substack, which sends out an email and does stuff through the app. So I do a combination. I have a Substack that gets amazing open rates. I made that switch about eight months ago, but I still use email for a lot of clients. Because the reality is, what do you do when you’re standing in line at the grocery store? You scroll your phone. And that’s where a lot of people look at email, or they’re waiting for somebody in a restaurant, or they’re I point in check. Tiz and I went out for dinner last Friday. I was 20 minutes early where I was meeting her. And what was I doing? Scrolling email on my phone. And you say, Well, why not social? The truth is I have no social media on my smartphone at all.
Rob:
So it’s self-effective.
Lee:
For me as well, I use an app called to be present, which limits my use of social media because I still need to have it on my phone to post for clients, but I don’t want to be on it for than 15 minutes a day. So I’ve got a limit on my… I’m the same as you on my inbox. But even when I had social media, I was definitely in my inbox. We had an episode a couple of years back, actually, as well, where somebody shared… It was Shiven. And he shared that a lot of people don’t necessarily read the emails you send, but they do read the subject, and the subject is one of those areas where you can continue to educate people about what you do over a course of, say, several months, where they may never read the email. They may just open an archive straight away and not necessarily leave your list. But what they are being doing, what is happening over a period of time is that subject is educating the person as to what it is you do, what are those key things, and eventually when there’s a need, they’re going to remember that subject heading that resonated with them.
Rob:
I had a client the week before Christmas who had been on my email list for three years, never bought, and he just spent 5K. There it is. Because the reality is it used to be seven to 10 touches to get somebody to… I don’t buy that. I think it’s more like 30 or 40. You just got to keep You got to keep providing value. And email is a great way to provide value and keep doing it.
Lee:
All right. On email then, people are like, How do I come up with the content? What do I talk about?
Rob:
Sit down with a piece of paper and make a list of what you do and what you’re going to and share that. Share tutorials, how-tos, insights into how your business does stuff. In my case, I also share the podcast episodes. If somebody’s got a problem, address the problem. A lot of people say, But then I’m giving away my expertise for free. My argument is, No, you’re making yourself a thought leader or somebody they can trust. That It’s more important than the long one.
Lee:
Well, the counterargument there as well is that a lot of people, if the person is going to do whatever it is you’ve told them for free themselves, fine, they weren’t your client anyway. If a person reads The secret sauce you shared, they don’t necessarily want it to do themselves. They want to work with you. You said right at the very beginning of the episode, didn’t you? A lot of people just want to work with you. They want you to do it because you have the experience, et cetera. Maybe you’ve given them some keys, but they would prefer that you did it for them anyway. You did mention as well as a podcast, mate, and you have a long-standing podcast. What are you on? Episode 600 and something now?
Rob:
617 dropped the other day. So yeah, just a few.
Lee:
Just a few. But that, again, is a piece of content that you are continuing to generate that’s positioning you as a thought leader. Could you just talk us through how the podcast helps you and your business? Because it comes across as you’re helping other people. You’re not selling anything. I’ve listened to episodes in the past. You’re not trying to sell me anything. You’re just interviewing great people with great stories, and that’s it. How And therefore, does that work for you and your business?
Rob:
For me, first of all, it shows I’m an expert out there. I think that’s really important. It shows I’ve got a network of people. Many of the guests I’ve had, I’ve actually ended up doing work with in one shape or another. Sometimes good work, sometimes just jumping on calls and supporting each other. So that’s expanded my network of people. It’s also from a perspective of just helping people. It comes back to that. Like, the more people you help, the more you’ll get back. And you know this. You’ve been podcasting a long time. Podcasting is a lot of work. I hate to tell people. It is not a job that if you want to do an hour a week, please don’t go there. I can tell you. I’m probably 5 to six hours every episode I do right now. So it’s just that. And it puts eyes on the business. And by the way, AI does scan podcasts for information. It does? Yes, it does. So there’s another factor. Those two dreaded letters called the AI.
Lee:
Oh, man, I don’t know how I feel about AI. Share with me. What are your thoughts? I mean, that’s a very vague, generic question, but-I think it’s important enough.
Rob:
I’m adding an AI podcast, and you heard it here first in the next month, a regular one. What?
Lee:
Exclusive to Trailblazer.
Rob:
There’s your breaking news for the daily. But no, I think AI is a tool, and we got to be aware of it. Tiz and I were sitting down a couple of months ago, and she said, But I’m not active on social except for Instagram. And I said, Okay, so watch this. And I took Tiz’s first name and last name and pumped it in AI, and AI spit out all kinds of stuff. And partially because she’s one of the inspirations for my podcast. I went through some health stuff, as you’ve gone through about a year ago, if you remember, and I think we’ve talked about. And she got me through that. She’s just a big inspiration in my life. I’ve mentioned her and I’ve dedicated stuff after. Ai was smart enough to go in and pull all that out and say, Here you go. She almost fell off her chair. If you don’t think AI matters in today’s marketing world, you have a root waking. I would say embrace it or fall way behind.
Lee:
Yeah. I’m with you. The things that are freaking me out are things like the image and the AI slop that’s filling YouTube. What I am using it for is things like making my existing copy better. If I write something, I might say improve the copy, or I might use it for ideation. I’ll be like, Look, I’m writing an article on X. I want to take it to here, to Y. Can you outline it? They might come up with some headings or something like that to help me, and then I can break that out. I’ll also use it if I want to be super, super, duper lazy and give it a big and say, Is there any gotchas in this contract that I’ve been sent that I should be aware of? So just having it summarised.
Rob:
I gave me another good reason. Show notes and summaries for your podcast. I take, and I’ll share this, I’ve shared this multiple times. I upload my audio to a notebook, LMN, get a summary, and then take all the podcast notes and jump it back, dump it back in the Gemini and say, Give me a transcript, and I’m done.
Lee:
Yeah. Do Does it do the show notes for you as well?
Rob:
Oh, yeah.
Lee:
Yeah. So I was doing that. But now that I’m doing audio only and I don’t have the video editing task anymore, I’m predominantly writing my own show notes straight after the episode recording. So when you and me finish, my brain’s already remembering key things that we’ve talked about. And then I’ll actually blitz some show notes there and then, then do the transcript later, because I’m trying to avoid my personal over reliance on AI, because what I was doing about a year ago, I took a break from the podcast, you’re aware, and much needed for a whole year, actually. And for me, what I was doing leading up to my break was I was not even looking at the output of AI. I was just feeding transcripts in and then dumping it on the website and my whole quality went down. So recently, what I’ve been doing is just forcing myself not to use these tools and try and use my brain again, my brain muscles for a while. I think that there’s that pressure, isn’t it? Again, going back to trying to be everywhere. I was trying to consistently upload content all the time and write blog posts and write tonnes and tonnes of social media posts, et cetera.
Lee:
I was thinking, all right, well, I’ll just leverage AI and be everywhere. But again, that’s just the bad advice, isn’t it? Because now I’m just putting low quality content everywhere, which doesn’t necessarily do me any favours.
Rob:
So true. I’ll go back to my jewellery store client. They tried because at one time they had a part-timer, and they had tried to be everywhere. They were writing a blog post a week, plus a mailing list, plus, plus, plus. It’s owned by a husband and wife. By the way, two of my best friends, so a little disclaimer there. I sat them down and said, Why are you doing all this? They said, Because our part-time run. I said, No, no, no. What you need to do is streamline So where are you getting… Well, now their mailing list, their last mailing after Christmas had an open rate of 47 %. So they have an engaged clientele, which is good. So you keep doing that. And believe it or not, their place they do really well is Instagram. So you keep doing that. And they get reviews on a Google business page. So you keep doing that. But they were on X/Twitter, and it’s like, why? Because they were getting nothing out of I’m like, Why are you spending time on it? Don’t. And that’s where you got to streamline it and say, Hey, this isn’t working, so let’s move on.
Rob:
And that’s really important.
Lee:
For me, then, it’s not marketing, but just for the burnout side of things. I stopped doing the video recording side of the podcast because that was causing hours of extra editing, especially if I make a mistake or the guest does-Record to tape. You need to cut the audio and therefore you need to make sure that the video cut looks all right. Otherwise, it’s just going to be really jarring if somebody’s watching it on YouTube, etc. I thought if I take video out of the equation, people are listening or reading the transcripts anyway, I might as well just switch back to audio, which is what I used to do. It’s great. I’m loving it. Freedom.
Rob:
Enjoy podcasting again. Whatever works. You and I talked about, I’m going to get you on and share your journey with my audience and your audience, and we’re going to have that chat. But I think what you have to do is manage what works for you. I think that’s really important. Stop listening to all the gurus that say, You need to be everywhere. You need to do this. You need to do that. I think that’s a really bad idea, personally.
Lee:
I think people forget that they know more than they give themselves credit for. They look, don’t they, to social media and these gurus who are saying, This is what worked for me, et cetera. And yet, if you were to put yourself in a position of being interviewed on a podcast, and I’m talking to the audience now, well, to anyone, really, you’ll suddenly surprise yourself at the amazing things you actually already know. I think people discount themselves very quickly and therefore almost outsource the thought process to other people. Oh, Joe blogs on social media says that I need to be everywhere or I need to blog every single day, therefore they must be right. Even though deep down, I know that going once a week to a local networking event is actually very good for me because it’s a very nice breakfast. But also, I do get at least one or two leads a month. Psychologically and mentally, I already know that fact, but somehow I’m outsourcing. I don’t do this anymore, but this is what a lot of people would be doing is they’re outsourcing that thought process and they’re not trusting their own instinct because someone else on the internet said something else.
Rob:
You get yourself out of the house, too, if you go to a networking breakfast and get to socialise and get to meet people. So the benefits are more than just the work.
Lee:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But also, I guess what I’m trying to say is, is trust yourself.
Rob:
Yeah, of course.
Lee:
Trust yourself because you know a lot more and you know what’s right for you than anyone else does. This is good. This is like therapy, mate. Yeah, I’m sure. That’s the other good thing is that I used to be, with this podcast, I used to be trying to sell things like tickets to events or get people to join a membership, etc. That was exhausting as well. I stripped all of that out. And this podcast is basically for me to chat to my mates, hence you’re on, in the hope that whatever we talk about will help anyone else who does want to listen, but also I can connect or continue to reconnect with people that I have worked with in the past because this is another form of networking, like you said.
Rob:
Oh, no question.
Lee:
Exactly. Where I’ve ended up doing business with a lot of my past guests because we’ve had a conversation, we’ve touched on specific things, and then I’ve either asked them to do some work for me or vice versa.
Rob:
Yeah, so true. More importantly, it gives you a chance to reconnect with all those people, and that’s really key.
Lee:
Oh, yeah. No, really, really enjoying it. And obviously, I appreciate you being on. So for someone who’s doing everything right now and feels trapped in doing everything, what would you say is the first step for them to break free?
Rob:
Take a piece of paper, write down everything you’re trying to do, or multiple pieces of paper, and just sit That’s what you’re doing. And brainstorming. By the way, this doesn’t go to marketing. It goes to all facets of life. This can be used anyway. And then look at it and prioritise it. And by that, I say, choose a couple of tasks week that you got to do and build off those. Don’t try and do everything. I am not a big fan of to-do list. I’m a big fan of I’d like to get these done and let’s figure out how and what I need to do. Then take those tasks that you’ve decided to do. And business owner 101 says, I don’t have time to market. I’m busy. Agency, I’m busy today. Well, we all know it’s easier to bring in leads when you are busy than when you’re not busy and under the gun. So budget in your schedule a couple of hours a week for business development, marketing, networking, whatever you got to do, and put those in your calendar and leave them there in stone. Do not move, do not touch, do not deviate from, and spend the time working on those items and what you need to do in that time period.
Rob:
That will go a long way and serve you well than saying, I don’t know what to do. I’m overwhelmed, and throwing everything against the wall and saying, Splat, choose one.
Lee:
I suppose as well, the benefit of writing everything down here is I can look then and say, Okay, well, I’m not on X, but for the jewellery company you mentioned who were on X, they would have written everything down and then looked in that and said, Okay, we’re also spending time on X and we’re rewriting our posts so it will fit into 200 and whatever it is characters now, which is extra work. If I look at the engagement on X, we are getting exactly zero % engagement. That’s a very quick and easy, all right, well, I can just cut that out. Yeah.
Rob:
And by the way, that’s where AI can come in handy, going back to that is. Really? It’s not unreasonable to take a post you’ve written and say, reformulate this for another network. Rewrite this for LinkedIn, rewrite this for Facebook, rewrite this for Substack. Why not?
Lee:
True. That would mean you’re being everywhere.
Rob:
Yeah, but I’m not suggesting to be everywhere. What suggesting is if you’re on two or three platforms.
Lee:
And you want to streamline that specific process. Yeah. Well, I’ve got to the end of my questions.
Rob:
Have you? Well, let me I’ll give you with this. Take the time and figure out how you want to market your business and also decide what you want out of your business. Do you want a business that grows or do you want a lifestyle business that pays your bills now, and that’s it. That’s okay, too.
Lee:
Or, I’m there, my boy, what you just mentioned. Listeners may be in a different place, but that’s the ideal for me is the business that pays the bills and gives me plenty of time with the kids. I’m at work.
Rob:
Or do you have a business that’s a side hobby or a side hustle? The reason I say that is I worked with somebody, and I’m I won’t call her out because it didn’t end well, that said she wanted this business to grow, but she wasn’t emphasising the time in the business. I sat her down one day on a Zoom call then and said to her, So what do you have here? Do you have a full-time job that you care more about? Do you have a business you’re trying to grow? Or do you really have a hobby and you’d like to do this because it makes you feel good? And she was actually very deeply offended about that conversation. But it’s a fair conversation because deciding what you’re doing decides how much you want to put into it. And that’s important. I know in my business, I’m still growing it and finding time for my partner and finding time to help friends. But I’m still growing it because if I get hung up on a space thing, I’ll outsource it or I’ll find a way to, you know what I mean, without killing myself because you don’t want to work all the time and not live your life either.
Rob:
That’s a mistake. So that’s what I would suggest and just go from there.
Lee:
Yeah, I think for me, having hit that burnout, I’m definitely in the space at the moment where I’m not pushing on growth at all because I don’t want to overwhelm myself. That’s not to say that I won’t enter a period of growth at some point, where I’m all in and have the energy, but I still don’t have that mental energy. I think people listening should also evaluate that. Where are you at the moment? If you just burned yourself out for years, perhaps take a bit of a break, too. Sorry, Cairns.
Rob:
Do me a favour, and you’re going to know where I’m going. Take care of your head. Really, really do that. You’ve burned yourself out. I’ve had burnout. We’ve both been there. And take care of the head because the brain’s not any good. You can’t take care of the rest of that, and you can’t take care of the people around you. So please do that.
Lee:
Absolutely. Well, on that note, mate, what’s the best way for people to connect with you? And then we shall say goodbye.
Rob:
Stunningdigitalmarketing.com. I’m on LinkedIn and X, primarily. You can find me @RobCairns on X Twitter, if you want. Hit me up. Be glad to have a conversation. Be glad to jump on a quick call and help you out, give you some pointers.
Lee:
From memory, do you also have a LinkedIn group?
Rob:
I do a large, large, large WordPress group that I co-manage with Courtney Robertson. It’s a WordPress global community group. There’s over 10,000 members in that group. So do a look. There’s a link to it on my website, too. If you go under free resources, there’s a direct link to the group.
Lee:
And be sure as well to subscribe to the podcast of Rob’s wherever you listen to podcasts. And the exclusive, look out for the AI one.
Rob:
Yeah, the SDM show. It’s been a labour of love. I have to tell you, I don’t know if you’ve seen the 600th episode, Lee, but my partner wanted the last word on that one, and they gave it to her. Nice. She’s special lady.
Lee:
I don’t quite know. I think this is 403, so I’ve got a while We’re yet to catch up with you. I might have been a bit closer had I not taken a year off, but I think that year was good for me.
Rob:
Whether you realise it or not, you’re one of the many inspirations on why I keep going when I’m podcasting. So thanks, man, for that. Right.
Lee:
Well, here’s a big, massive digital hug, and thank you so much for your time.
Rob:
You’re welcome.
Lee:
Take care, buddy. Bye-bye.
Rob:
Bye.
