Note: This transcript was auto generated then some poor soul sat and listened to it, and followed through correcting any mistakes they spotted. Please however expect human error and shout if you spot an issue. Email: lee [fancy curly symbol] trailblazer.fm.
Verbatim text
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Foreigners and design agencies exploring the world of WordPress and online business. And now your host, Lee Jackson. Hi, and welcome to the WP Innovator Podcast. This is your host, Lee, and I am blown away by how cool this episode was. Yes, we’re on. On episode 29, and we had the honor of Tim Page on the line, who is just frankly, hilarious. So I’m not going to spoil anything. I encourage you just to sit down, relax, listen to the show and enjoy.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But before you do, please do head on over to the Facebook group on leejacksondev.com group that’ll redirect you to Facebook and you can come and enjoy and join in the conversations that we’re having over there. A reminder of current conversations are things like hosting contracts, project management tools that you use, etc. So come on over and join the conversation. We’ll see you there and enjoy the show. Ladies and gentlemen, I have with me today in the virtual studio, Team Paige.
Tim Paige:
Perfect. That’s perfect.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s how you pronounce it, isn’t it?
Tim Paige:
Yeah, that’s how my friends tell me it’s Team Paige.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It’s a little.
Tim Paige:
Little Italian. Little French.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m just gonna have to tell this audience to pipe down. I can hardly hear.
Tim Paige:
Shh.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Guys, guys, guys.
Tim Paige:
I’m Polish and Irish, but we pronounced my name a little Italian and French.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So we were just having a conversation, weren’t we, just before we hit record? And I just wanted to double check that Paige wasn’t actually some really weird kind of like, parge or something like that. And you’d be mortally offended. So we figured he was gonna be called Team Paige if you hadn’t got it. It’s actually Tim Page. Tim, mate, how you doing?
Tim Paige:
I am doing just wonderful. And how about yourself?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m really good. I’m actually drinking a bottle of Stella
Tim Paige:
at the moment, so not much of a beer guy. I’m more of a apple cider or hard root beer or anything with Jameson in it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, mate.
Tim Paige:
Okay.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
If you had video on, you’d be able to see my Jameson collection behind me.
Tim Paige:
Oh, nice, man. Jameson and ginger is pretty much one of the greatest things ever.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Amen, brother. We’ve got. We’ve got something in common. We’ve bonded now. This is a good start. Yeah, I’m just. I’m actually looking at my Jameson now. It’s right across the other side of the road.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
My cart. Reach it. It’s kind of like torture.
Tim Paige:
That’s. That’s sad. You’ve got me Thinking it’s just out of reach.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, yeah. You see, I’m so dedicated to the cause. I even have a hip flask. You know those little hip flasks?
Tim Paige:
Uh huh. That’s good. I like it. Well, right now I’m on a self imposed, no drinking. Not because of any problem or anything, but because my wife is pregnant with our second one and she can’t drink. So I’m doing solidarity right now. No drinking from me either. And then when that baby comes.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Sorry, just. Congratulations there. Thank you.
Tim Paige:
And then when the baby comes, I’ll drown myself in Jameson. That’s not true either. That probably won’t happen.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’ll be. Well, they. I don’t know what they call it out there in the uk. We would call that wetting the baby’s head. Oh, okay. Yeah, so it’s like a big celebration. The baby’s born and you all go out and get absolutely plastered. Yep.
Tim Paige:
That won’t happen. I’ll be. I’ll be at home trying to get my two year old to behave. Well, he’ll be a three year old at that point, but. Well, yeah, you know how easily get
Lee Matthew Jackson:
him on changing diapers, stuff like that. Three years old, he’d be saying, fine,
Tim Paige:
he’s gonna have to change his own first.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s brilliant. We’ve got another one now. You look after yourself. The juice is in the fridge.
Tim Paige:
Yeah, you’re done.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Dinner’s in the microwave.
Tim Paige:
You can’t expect us to multitask in parenting.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So funny. Just see the guy’s face.
Tim Paige:
What? He wouldn’t like it very much. He’s very babied.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, bless him. Anyway, so there you go. So that was three minutes of me and you chatting. And that’s amazing.
Tim Paige:
People value.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Exactly. And some people may not know who you are.
Tim Paige:
So many people won’t.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, there you go. Well, I know who you are because you seem to appear everywhere. And that could be because of very clever Facebook retargeting. Maybe, I don’t know.
Tim Paige:
Most likely, more than likely.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But I know you as Tim Page, not Tim Paige from the Voice of Tim. So you are the podcast intro guy. You’ve got quite a few different titles to your name that people refer to you as. All Good, obviously. And you’re also the conversion educator at LeadPages, which is quite a title.
Tim Paige:
I prefer it when you say it. When I say it, it’s just kind of like, you know, conversion educator. But when you say it, it’s conversion educator. And I love it so much more that way.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You’re pretty good at the UK accent there.
Tim Paige:
Yeah, well, you know, it’s not, it’s only if I. A couple of words. If I’ve got to say more than like three words, then it just falls apart. Becomes like half Australian, half Chris Ducker, whatever his accent is. And really, really falls apart from there.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, well, on that, you know, presumably you’ve seen House.
Tim Paige:
I’ve seen what House, like the TV show? Yeah, I have.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Okay. Is. Is his American? Is his American very good? We think it’s amazing.
Tim Paige:
Yeah, I think it’s pretty good.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Okay, so it’s close.
Tim Paige:
I think it’s harder to go to an American accent than to a British one.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, whenever I hear Americans do it, they’re just like, hello, how are you? That’s a. I’m an American to a British voice.
Tim Paige:
And that’s exactly what it is. That’s me. More than three words, I start to just really fall apart. I’ve got friends that are amazing at it, but me, nope, not an accent guy. No.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No worries. Well, mate, just, I just want to open up to you for a second and just, just say hi to the audience. We’ve got a whole lot of web designers and design agencies listening in. Many will have heard of you, mate, especially people who listen to the podcast regularly. I’ve mentioned you a couple of times before, but, you know, to the people that don’t know you, just. Can we have a little bit of background about yourself, probably starting in 1980, when you were born or whenever you were born. I’m just trying to be. I was trying to compliment you, but if you’re 25, I’ve probably just offended you.
Tim Paige:
You slightly offended me. It’s 84, but that’s okay.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Really.
Tim Paige:
Yeah. No real, no offense. My wife says I’m like 60 all the time. Yeah, no, you nailed it. My two kind of work loves are I am the senior conversion educator at LeadPages, and that means that I teach people how to do marketing based on the information we’ve learned from the data that we have. So our split tests for our own business, as well as over 40,000 people that use our software. And I do that a lot. I’ve done over 450 webinars in the last two years.
Tim Paige:
So I spend a lot of time on webinars. I have, you know, our podcast conversion cast, which is every week, and we have cool people on and they spend 10 minutes telling us about a split test or marketing thing that they’ve done that’s worked and, and then outside of that business, little business I started on accident a few years ago was I was. I had a really bad podcast long before I ever became a part of leadp. And it was called the awesome Podcast, which was ironic. And one day I was like, I should make an intro for this thing. I’ve got like this podcast with no intro. So everybody had an intro that was like, you know, upbeat music and a radio guy. And I wanted to do something different.
Tim Paige:
So I found this really epic music and I was like, you know, in a world where people live these horrible lives, one man will find a way to live an awesome life. And I did that. And it was. Was horrible. And, and I liked that by the
Lee Matthew Jackson:
way, that you just did. Thank you. I’ve actually tried my own introductions in a very similar vein. Grab something from Envato, like some dramatic epic music in the background. And I even shared this on the Facebook group earlier. I was like, guys, I’m trying to find an epic style script. Anyway, carry on.
Tim Paige:
Oh man. Well, it was. I personally thought it’s still to this day, it’s a little embarrassing and I still don’t have a good trailer voice. But, but a lot of people liked it. And the four and a half people that listened to my podcast all apparently had their own podcasts and reached out to me and said, can you do mine? And I said, sure, I’ll do it for $20 or something stupid. And I did it. And then it spiraled out of control until like over 100 people had asked me to do their intros and I was like, well, I’m gonna charge more for this. And so I started charging more.
Tim Paige:
And then I did an intro for a tiny, itty bitty little podcast called Entrepreneur on Fire, which was like this big starting point for my voiceover career. And I’ve done now over 700 podcast intros and outros and, and, and that kick started this whole thing of me going, well, if I can do that, what else is there in this world of performing? Because I was a professional musician for seven years and did all these things and I loved performing and so I learned about voiceover and I was like, this is amazing. And, and now I have clients like the UFC and Time Warner Cable and Disney and all these amazing clients that I get to do along with all the wonderful podcasts and stuff. So it’s, it’s this cool two pronged like career thing I have going on right now where I get to help people with their businesses and help people sell their stuff. It’s cool.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That is pretty awesome. The minute you said Disney, I just kind of like phased out this like magical, mystical world of happiness and awe. I mean, you said Entrepreneur on Fire and that got me like in the feels because I’m totally fanboying over that guy, like a man crush. But then you followed on with Disney and I’m just. What have you done recently for Disney? Are you allowed to tell?
Tim Paige:
Yeah, yeah. Well, I. So I don’t do characters. I mean, I do some characters, but I don’t get booked for a lot of characters. It’s not a specialty of mine. But I do a lot of commercials for. For their Miles from Tomorrowland stuff. And anybody with young kids has probably seen this thing.
Tim Paige:
And for me, I can, you know, I’m not, you know, Disney Junior is great and all that, but I’m, you know, kind of like the 80s and 90s. Disney movies are like heaven for me. But what I can always go to is I love Disney World and Disneyland. And so whenever I do the commercials, it’s this big upbeat thing. So it’s like from Disney Juniors, Miles from Tomorrowland. Blast off with the Stella sphere. And I get all into it and then every time I get to say Miles from Tomorrowland, I always think of Disney World and Tomorrowland and I’m just like, ah, the feels. I love it.
Tim Paige:
But yes, I’m a Disney freak as well.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, we are totally Disney freaks. Quite a few visits and yes. Yeah, T shirts. And that’s to go with it because of going. Yep.
Tim Paige:
A little tougher for you to go than for me, but still. Yeah, it’s great. We got to take our two year old there back in February and he loved it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
All right, got to put it out there. Now, would I be right in thinking that Mexican Donald probably is the coolest? You know, the Mexican Donald. So in Mexico, in Epcot, and you’ve got the Mexican Donald.
Tim Paige:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Isn’t it just the cutest?
Tim Paige:
It’s just amazing. It’s amazing. There’s. This is like the lesson for business people and developers and entrepreneurs and stuff. If you just do anything, if you could find a way to do what Disney does, they make. Everything they do is a magical experience. Like everything. Ordering food, buying whatever souvenirs that you don’t need, but have to have everything waiting in line, riding the bus, everything is like an amazing magical experience.
Tim Paige:
And it’s like some people go there and they’re like, this is for my kids. This is the vacation I’m going to, you know, stab myself in the eyeball in the middle of this. But I go there and I’m like, I’m having more fun than all the other kids around here. This is, like the best thing ever. And it’s because they’re just. Everywhere you look, there’s, like, a little something. There’s Mexican Donald. There’s like, these little things, there’s these characters.
Tim Paige:
There’s this thing that you didn’t even know existed. And it’s like, I. I desperately want to find little ways to inject that into other things in my life, in my business. I’m a big comic book fan, and I’m a collector, and I occasionally will sell some comic books. And one of the things I always do is I always just add a bunch of extra books in there. Just like somebody buys. I don’t know. I just sold Amazing Spider Man 41, which is the first appearance of Rhino.
Tim Paige:
It was written by Stan Lee. So it’s, you know, a special book. And the person that bought it, I. You know, I put in a couple of extra books and little things and little drawings and stuff. And it’s just like, find little ways to inject magic into the way you do business. I know that’s not super business, but, you know, find little ways to inject magic into it. And it ends up being this thing that’s so hard to tangibly measure. But.
Tim Paige:
But I’ve found that it comes back. It finds a way to, like, it’s. Make its way back to you, and your business grows. It’s weird.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It’s. It’s kind of around, though, that giving, isn’t it? The idea you’ve given something special, and it does come back to you and what you’re talking about. Disney as well. I’m just kind of madly nodding my head here. If it were on video, you’d think maybe I was having a fit or something. But right behind me, I’m kind of looking just beyond the Jameson whiskey, and there is a whole bookshelf full of Disney books, including things like Be Our Guest and all of their books on customer service and you name it. I’ve got pretty much every Disney book going because of that. You know, I remember the first time I ever went, and I was like, flipping it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
These guys know how to do business. They know how to make you feel so special. They. Everything is a pleasure to do. Even going the restrooms is cool. Yeah. You know, they’ve got the whole thing nailed. I’ve got to learn from this company, and I’ve got to somehow do what they do.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I think they’ve got the Disney Institute, haven’t they, over in America?
Tim Paige:
I don’t know, maybe.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So they go, there’s a plug for the Disney Institute. I’m pretty sure if you’re based in the usa, just Google that. I’m pretty sure there’s a Disney Institute that kind of help businesses.
Tim Paige:
Kind of.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, well, they go, they help businesses, you know, capture that Disney magic, etc. Learn all those things that Disney have learned over the last few years. And how. How did you meet up with entrepreneur on Fire? Just kind of like totally changing the subject there as well.
Tim Paige:
That’s okay.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s kind of been at the back of my mind going, lee, Lee, ask about that. How did that happen?
Tim Paige:
This will be, this is going to be like the trend for our talk. It’s just. Well, we were just talking about Disney. Now we’re talking about like farting on a snare drum. I don’t know.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, tell me about that. How does that work?
Tim Paige:
Yeah. So I. So for John, interestingly enough, before John ever had a lot of success, he had like 10 episodes or something and nobody knew who he was. And I was in the same boat and I was looking for great guests, and I just, I found his email and I emailed him and I said, hey, John, my name’s Tim. I’ve actually listened to the first 10 episodes of your show. Really, like, it can see you going somewhere. I would love to have you come on my show to talk about your experience. And he did.
Tim Paige:
And we became just great friends from the onset. And his show took off and he started doing $400,000 a month. And I went on my path, which was not quite $400,000 a month, but still wonderful and incredible. But in all that time, he stayed the same guy. He’s been the same guy ever since. He had nothing and no listeners. So we’ve just been friends ever since. And it was just when his show had really taken off, that was when he was looking for a new intro.
Tim Paige:
And he came to me and just to show you the kind of integr integrity he has, he sent me a message and said, hey, buddy, I need a podcast intro. Tell me what you, you know, how it works and how much it costs. And I sent him back my rate at the time, which was just like a joke. And he actually, what I initially said was, you’re a friend. This will be good exposure for me. I’ll do it for free. Which was stupid. Bad answer.
Tim Paige:
Don’t do things for exposure or because somebody’s a friend. And. And he responded, no, that’s ridiculous. I’m paying you. I don’t care if you’re a friend. This is business. So I gave him a quote and it was stupid. And he came back and said, that’s ridiculous.
Tim Paige:
Here’s what I’m going to pay you. And it was like, well above my quoted rate. And from then on, that was my new quoted rate. And business exploded and I kept raising my rates, and every time I did, business got better. So really interesting thing came out of that relationship, other than the fact that he’s gotten me a business that, you know, would have been extremely hard to get without him. And he is a great friend. But also I got that lesson of like, you know, this rate thing that I know developers out there are dealing with, I know voice actors out there are dealing with, and we go, how do we charge appropriately? How do I find that balance? Well, chances are you’re not charging enough. And I found that to be the case.
Tim Paige:
And right now, I am by far the most expensive podcast intro voice actor and producer out there by far. And. And I do more business than a lot of other people. And it’s not to brag. It’s just you, you present the value, you do the best you possibly can, and people will correlate your. You almost, Almost correlate your price with your value. As long as you aren’t really terrible. If you’re really terrible, that’s going to be hard.
Tim Paige:
But I’m only moderately terrible. And so when people pay that top dollar and they get something that’s like. Well, that they feel like they got something much better, I’m being modest. I actually think we do a great job. But, yeah, every time I’ve raised my prices, my business has almost doubled.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So I almost had a plan. You know, I was thinking, is there a way that I can get you to say every single word I would need for my intro, which I can then cut out, splice together and get a free intro from Tim Page.
Tim Paige:
If only it worked that way. If only you could get me to say, like, welcome, thanks for coming on the show today, blah, blah, blah. And then I’m like. To the. And that. Yeah, unfortunately, no, I know there’s a
Lee Matthew Jackson:
whole lot of other stuff. I am. I am messing with you. That’s a fascinating story and something that I’ve talked about quite a few times is the whole rates thing. I remember doing so many. So much work as a developer for Totally Free, so totally devaluing what I do because I thought I would get exposure. I could Put my link at the bottom of that website. That person would be so grateful, they would tell everyone.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Unfortunately, they would actually just be a complete pain in the ass because, oh, gosh, they were getting it for free and they were just pushing me and pushing me and pushing me. But that’s a whole other story. So Wait, wait, wait.
Tim Paige:
Let’s not go away from that yet.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, okay.
Tim Paige:
I got a quick story about that. This is.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Go for it.
Tim Paige:
Do my rates as high as they are. Right. Had somebody come to me and if they’re listening to the show, I’m sorry for telling the story, but I won’t use your name. Somebody came to me recently and they.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m joking. It’s not Derek.
Tim Paige:
Yeah, yeah, Lee Jackson. It was. They wanted. They had. It was two different people and, you know, it was a husband and wife and they were both starting podcasts and they both wanted a couple of different intros and outros for their individual podcasts because they had different call to actions, calls to action for their outro and everything. So no problem. They asked for a discount. And I said, of course you’re gonna order a bunch of stuff.
Tim Paige:
I’m gonna, you know, I’ll give you a package deal. And I quoted my. Whatever I had come up with because this was an interesting one. And they came back and said, it’s a little too high. We can’t really afford that. This is not a for profit thing. And I said, that’s okay, but mine is. And so we haggled and negotiated, and they agreed to take a few of the extra things that we do for people out of there.
Tim Paige:
And that was fine. That took away some time, so it was worth it. And we ended up settling on a number that I felt was a little bit low for me. It was a little bit kind of skewed in their favor, but that was fine. I was okay with it. I was willing to do it, and it didn’t devalue my work. It was still higher than most other people. So fine.
Tim Paige:
And those people ended up requiring about two months worth of time. And granted, normally it’s a week and not like a whole week, but usually they order and then within a week we’re completely done. Everything is done and they’ve got it. And it took two months, and I recorded several different versions. They took up a ton of my. My team’s time because I’ve got a little team that helps me write the scripts and find the music and all that. It was just unbelievable, the amount of work. Literally, I wish I could have gotten all that time back and just had said to them, I apologize, but this is not right for you.
Tim Paige:
And that seems to be a trend with every developer I know, with every designer I know, with every voice actor I know. That seems to be the thing. If people are going to beat you up and aren’t willing to pay for that extra quality, then it’s probably not worth it, even if you really need it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Exactly. And this is the story of very similar story I’ve told in the past as well through the podcast. You know, taken on work that’s really low price, devaluing myself as well, but then working my butt off for it for weeks and weeks. I mean, I remember one project took nearly a year. And if you, if you imagine how much I charge for a, you know, I charge the same for a four week project. I was like, eventually it was a case of just saying, okay, this is quits now. Yeah, everyone’s got to walk away. Here’s your money.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Let’s just forget about this.
Tim Paige:
Yeah, I’ve done the work and then refunded it because I knew it was going to continue going on. And it was better for me to say, you know what? You know, because you can say, look, I did my part, I did the work you asked me to do. It’s done. I’ve given you above and beyond and I’ve gone over and over and they still leave mad. It’s much easier to say, you know what? I did all the work I did. That’s all done. I can’t get that time back. You can’t get your time back of not getting the product you want.
Tim Paige:
Here’s your money back. You know, I hope that you can use that to work with somebody that will get you what you want, but it just seems it’s not working out for us. And every time I’ve done that, everybody’s gone away. At least level, at least calm, not happy. You know, I’m not happy. They’re not happy, but at least it’s a. Okay, well, I’m neutral, moving on. Let’s pretend that never happened.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, and that’s so good. I like that. Well, you know, you talked about doubling your price. Well, I don’t know if you said doubling, but you said it. Doubling. Yeah. So, yeah, so for me, I doubled and quadrupled and then quadrupled what I’d quadrupled again eventually to find that good rate. And I’ve had the exact same experience as you, so I’m definitely not, as a company, we are definitely not the cheapest developers out there.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So if somebody approaches us for a web builder, because we’ll get a lot of agencies approach us for a web build, we’re certainly not going to be the price of a freelancer. We’re going to be at least four, five, six times more expensive. But we do really well as a business because of the price, because of the, obviously the perceived value. But also, you know, they’re. They’re getting what they pay for. We can take the time. Because they’re paying so well, we can take the time to get it right as well. We’re not rushing.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
We’re not trying to do too many things. And that was my problem right from the very beginning. You know, I was trying to do too much for too little, and I was just screwing everything up. Whereas now I’m charging a price which is reasonable to them, to the client because of the value that they’re receiving. But it’s also reasonable to me and the team because we don’t have to freak out and try and ship things out of the door every day just to make ends meet as a business. We can take our time, get it right, get it freaking awesome. Be proud of it, and give the client something that they are just, you know, super happy with and they’ll keep coming back. So that’s it.
Tim Paige:
That’s exactly it. I mean, it’s, It’s. It’s amazing that you’ll talk to some of the smartest people in the world that would pay for your services, whether it’s you as a developer or me as a voice actor. You know, they would. You’ll talk to those people and some of them will go, like, here’s a trend going on in the voiceover world right now. And I know that it’s probably the same thing that many developers are dealing with. Fiverr. Right? Okay.
Tim Paige:
People don’t even like to say the word. Like, hold on, I gotta. I’m gonna throw up in my mouth if I say this again. Fiber. Fiber. Fiverr.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Sorry, it’s my cat. It’s a hairball. No, I’m joking.
Tim Paige:
And people don’t like to talk about it because they are, like, deathly afraid that people are going to discover Fiverr. Like, like our clients are just going to suddenly go, wait a minute, I can get what you do for five bucks. Well, you know, you can’t get what you do for five bucks. And what we found is that the people that pay big bucks in voiceover, they know about Fiverr and they go, okay, well, I’ve got to pitch something to a client and I need the voiceover to kind of suck because they need it to really focus on the visuals and the. And then when the final project is ready, they actually will go and hire a voice talent like myself and spend all the money as opposed to, you know, they don’t want a good voiceover for the beginning. So it’s like, we need to remember that if somebody is going, oh, well, I’ve got this, you know, I need this big website built. And it’s, this is, you know, this is for all the marbles. This is my family business.
Tim Paige:
And if this website doesn’t work, we’re going under. If they’re gonna bank that on Fiverr, on a Fiverr dev or whatever, well, they’re not very smart. And chances are they’re going to do that and then go, oh, God, please, Lee, come and save me. I will pay you all the money that I have in my piggy bank. That’s what I find ends up happening more times than not. People tell me like, I’m so afraid of Fiverr because people are just going to go there, but I think when somebody does that, they almost automatically come back and go, I screwed up and I need you.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I think I’d like to echo that, buddy. And just to encourage people who are listening. Most of the business that we get as an agency is actually, please, can you fix this, Lee, We’ve, we’ve gone for a cheap developer, we’ve had this site built and it doesn’t do what we need to do. And we’re, we’re in a real fix, you know, can you help us out? And we’ll end up rebuilding it from scratch in half the time or even a quarter of the time it’s taken usually them in the past. And then they’re super happy they’ve got something they can go ahead and use. So yes, there are the Fiverrs, the upworks, the really cheap systems out there that people can go ahead and use. But more often than not, it definitely, especially in things like development or like you’re talking about in the creative industry that we’re in, it’s definitely something that you just can’t find. You can’t really replace it for cheap.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You can do a quick fix. Like you said, I just need something to tide me over. But for the real deal, you need to, yeah, I’ll go about you.
Tim Paige:
And if you’re the person that’s thinking about putting your stuff, your work on Fiverr, don’t, don’t. People will go out there. And look, I’ve heard compelling arguments. I’ll use voiceover as an example. I’ve heard compelling arguments. I know personally know voice actors that are making six figures using Fiverr, like exclusively. They don’t do any other stuff. And.
Tim Paige:
And that’s compelling for somebody going, well, I work, you know, doing my job, and I hate my job, and I love doing voiceover, and I would rather do that. And six figures would change my whole world. It’s compelling. But the interesting thing is six figures, or whatever that magical unicorn number is, is not that hard through other means. And it doesn’t require 90 hours a week of work. And that the Fiverr pit is crazy hard to crawl out of. And I can speak from experience. Cause I was on Fiverr four years ago.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
All right, I did not know this.
Tim Paige:
Oh, yeah, I was on Fiverr and I was doing it was the mind
Lee Matthew Jackson:
blown gif going on loop in my head.
Tim Paige:
Yeah. I don’t know what. Can’t remember what I was offering. It was something about podcast intros and. And it was a hard pit to climb out of because then I had a bunch of Fiverr clients. And guess what? Fiverr clients, they kept coming back for more because I was actually pretty good. I was one of those people, that’s good. That’s on Fiverr.
Tim Paige:
And you’re going to, what the hell is that person doing on Fiverr? That was me. And people kept coming back and buying because they wanted good work and they were getting it for five bucks. And. And so when I finally woke up and was like, I’m a frigging idiot. I’m getting $4 for stuff that people charge $1,000 for. What am I doing? And so I got off of it and I deleted everything. And I went out and I said, I’m raising my rates, and here’s my fair rates. And I had all the Fiverr people who would probably, under other circumstances, pay well were pretty much gone because now they’d been trained.
Tim Paige:
There were two things. One, they were trained that I was worth $5. And two, they were trained that you can get quality talent on Fiverr. Right. So it hurt everything. It hurt the industry as a whole. And it hurt me because I had to do that. Now, granted, it took me a while, but once I got out of that, now people know that somebody doesn’t come to me and go, can I pay you $5 and give voiceover? No.
Tim Paige:
So don’t put yourself in that realm. Are there some talented people on Fiverr? Unfortunately, yes. And we can’t hide from that. There are in just about every industry, designers, developers, voice actors. There’s some talented people on there because people will do anything for $5, which is stupid. And that’s the reality. But don’t put yourself in that pool because again, it’s really hard to get out.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
There’s such good advice. Yeah, don’t put yourself in that pool. I’ve never thought of it that way as well, you know, talented people going on there and that’s bad for everyone, including themselves. Yeah. Enough for a fight for five books. I mean, fiverr have evolved slightly. They have add ons and stuff like that, et cetera, but there’s still that whole cheap mentality.
Tim Paige:
So that’s what it is.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Exactly.
Tim Paige:
Mentality. I love that you said that. That’s it. Even if somebody buys the big old fan, big thing, hundred dollar thing, like what do you do that’s worth a hundred dollars? Like what.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
What is developing a meeting for an hour.
Tim Paige:
Right. What the heck are you doing that’s worth a hundred dollars? Almost nothing. There’s almost nothing that you are doing that’s only worth a hundred dollars. Almost nothing.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Exactly right.
Tim Paige:
If you’re already. If you’re gonna go and poop and read a comic book while you’re taking a poop, somebody’s gonna pay you $100 to do that. As long as you don’t have to be on video, that’s fine.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Is this a job, by the way? I don’t know. It’s gonna go on Craigslist. Hang on. No, no, there’s nothing. Keep going.
Tim Paige:
That’s all I got. I just, I got talking about pooping in comic books and it all went off the rails.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, all right, let’s. Let’s just quickly go off on a tangent because I think this is the theme of today’s podcast, which is awesome. Tangents. Yes. I like it. So the question is Marvel or dc?
Tim Paige:
Oh, Marvel all the way Marvel. Great. But I guess the real, the proper answer is whatever you love. Right. I’m a big. I have actually have a podcast I do about trying to help people get into comics.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s exactly why I asked.
Tim Paige:
And the reason that I say whatever you love is because I personally, I’ve read many DC books and they just have never hooked me. But I’ve read about a million Marvel books and I can’t wait till the next one. So. But I know many people that can’t stand Marvel and love every DC book and that’s great. Just go buy comic books.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And with regards to Your podcast, how can people find it? Because I do know there’s quite a few of us that love comics.
Tim Paige:
Yeah, it’s. It’s called Getting Into Comics, and it’s at Getting Into Comics dot com. I am, as of today, going to start doing less frequent episodes because I am getting shorter and shorter on time. But, yeah, so it was every week. Now it’s going to be probably more like once a month. But we’ve had some really cool guests. We had the CEO of IDW Publishing, who is responsible for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Transformers and Lock and Key and tons of awesome books. We had him on.
Tim Paige:
We’ve had Koi Jondreau from Marvel Movie News. It’s been fun, but it’s just a little thing I do for fun because I wish more people read comics because they’re so awesome.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Pretty sure there’s a few geek chasms going on right now.
Tim Paige:
I know, right?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
As people are listening. That’s amazing. And are you gonna cover, by any chance, at any point, the current shocking news about Captain America?
Tim Paige:
Yes, in fact, I did. On this most recent episode. I did.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. Because I’ve not listened to it. Maybe I should listen to it before I asked that question.
Tim Paige:
That’s okay. Check it out. Here’s me covering it. It’s not gonna last anyway.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, I figured it’s mind control or something. That was my thing.
Tim Paige:
No, they’ve said it’s not mind control.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh.
Tim Paige:
It is not mind control. It is not an alternate universe. And it is not anybody other than Captain America. It is really him, and he really said that. I don’t know if they’re gonna check. They’re gonna have to change it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I. Yeah, because they’ll be. Yeah.
Tim Paige:
Anyway, it would. I would riot. Yeah. But I actually. I read the book. I actually enjoyed it. I thought it was a good story. So there’s that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Sweet.
Tim Paige:
All the comic fans in the world hate me.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No. Quite a lot of people have said the same as you. I think the people I’ve chatted to as well. It was a great. It was a great book. It’s a great storyline. They’re pretty sure it can’t last because it’s like heresy, essentially. Exactly.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
For 90 years of a character, or 70 years or whatever it is. I’m kind of lost now, but you know what I mean. Okay.
Tim Paige:
Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Cool. All right, so let’s get back to business. We’ve learned so much from you already, mate. This is amazing. And you just kind of blow my mind in quite a lot of areas. You’ve Said a few things so eloquently that I’ve kind of tried to bumble along and say in past episodes. And you’ve kind of fit in so much. It’s amazing.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So thank you so much. I’m intrigued, though. How did you get from kind of being the voiceover man to being, you know, the. How did I say it? Conversion educator.
Tim Paige:
Conversion educator.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Conversion. I can’t even do a British accent.
Tim Paige:
You can’t do it unless you just do it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Unless I just do it. Did you get to become the conversion educator at LeadPages?
Tim Paige:
Yeah. That was yet again, our pal, John Lee Dumas. He’s impacted my life, as you may be able to tell. And it was all by accident. No. So he had Clay, the CEO of LeadPages, on Entrepreneur on Fire. And after the interview, Clay was like, hey, John, look, I know you’re like the podcast guy. Do you know anybody who would be a good fit to host the LeadPages Podcast? Because we want to start one, but I don’t have the time to host it.
Tim Paige:
I’m running the company. And John said, yes, I know a guy, Tim. And he introduced him to me. And I started out doing the LeadPages podcast. That was my whole job. It was five days a week, and that was my whole thing. That was all I was there to do. And we eventually decided we wanted to do one day a week, and we tested it and got really great results.
Tim Paige:
Better results doing one day a week instead of five. And somewhere along the way, Clay, at that point was doing all of our webinars, and he was sick or something came up, and he said, tim, I’m wondering, do you have any experience presenting to groups of people? And I have been a salesperson basically my entire life to fund all the other things that I was doing. So I was like, yeah, I can sell some stuff. And so I did a webinar with two hours notice, one that I had seen once before, and out converted Clay. We sold more stuff on the webinar than I did, than Clay did.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s gonna be my line for the day. I out converted Clay.
Tim Paige:
And he said, well, guess what? You’re doing our webinars from now on.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Sweet.
Tim Paige:
And I said, okay, sounds good. And so, yeah, so now that’s what I do. And that is the vast majority of my working day, is the things that I do at LeadPages. I know we talked a lot about the voiceover stuff, but I think it’s because that’s the entrepreneur. I run a business, and it relates really Easily to.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, it was because you wouldn’t shut
Tim Paige:
up about it and I wouldn’t shut up about it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m joking with you. Carry on.
Tim Paige:
I’m a voice actor. We don’t shut up, we just keep going.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I love that you sound like the guy who does the voiceovers for the honest trailers. Anyway.
Tim Paige:
Oh man. John Bailey. He’s a friend of mine.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No way. Name dropping John Lee Dumas.
Tim Paige:
Carry on. John is funny. In fact, if you go see a movie now in Regal theaters, you’ll see him. He’s in some of the commercials that are before it. I can’t remember what he’s promoting. But anyway, yeah, so that’s the vast majority of the.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You out for converted clay. That’s where we got to. And that’s the vast majority of your
Tim Paige:
work currently, yes, is with leadpages is on webinars. I’m typically on at least one webinar every day, sometimes two. And then outside of leadpages, that’s when I do the voiceover work for my agent and the podcast stuff and then the things that I randomly do for myself that nobody ever hears. Which that doesn’t happen as much anymore. But I used to do. I did something called I read my spam.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’d be great.
Tim Paige:
Oh, it’s so much fun. Anytime I pick up, I’ll pick up a spam email and here as I waste your listeners time, I’ll pick up a spam email and I’ll just do. I’ll do a voiceover of it. So we’re going to do one live. Let’s see what I’ve got. I’m looking for something good because I get a lot of spam email my gmail like many people do. Oh, let’s see, we’ve got one here. I’ll make it show appropriate.
Tim Paige:
By the way, I read my spam.com. i think it’s still there. So it goes like this. Hello, Check out the profiles of over 30,000 Russian babes and connect on meetrussianbeauty.com. make these Russian girls fall for your charm. It’s fun, easy and privacy guaranteed. Just click the button below to ignite your passion. Go find my love.
Tim Paige:
And I do that and I put music and sound effects and it’s really the best thing ever. It’s great.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And then you should sell it, you know, like they do on Audio Jungle. It’s like Audio Jungle over the top of it. Send it to the guys like hey, thanks for the this amazing message. I did this for you. If you want to buy it.
Tim Paige:
Yeah, that’s right.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Audio Jungle. Audio Jungle.
Tim Paige:
I stole the idea from Bill Burr because he’s got a podcast called the Monday Morning Podcast, and he does these commercials where, you know, like, he gets sponsors for his podcast, but he, he kind of makes fun of him.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, cool. So you actually, you pay to be made fun of.
Tim Paige:
Pretty much. And they get a lot of business, you know, like, you know, me undies and Sherry’s berries and all that stuff. They, they make a killing from his show because he just kind of goes, oh, Sherry’s berries. Here we are with Sherry’s bear. Buy some strawberries. Get laid on Valentine’s Day. Like, it’s hysterical.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s brilliant. I’m gonna go check that one out as well. Hey, quick question, then let’s just talk on LeadPages. Can you give me the 60 second potted answer as to what LeadPages is and how it could help design agencies?
Tim Paige:
LeadPages is software that takes what’s been tested and proven in marketing and makes it easy for you to implement that in your business. So it is landing pages that are built into templates based on billions of points of data about what actually gets people to do what you want them to do. So if you are a design agency or a developer or whatever, you can use LeadPages for your clients. So it means you have to take less of your team’s time. It means you don’t have to guess what works. And if a client says, hey, I really just want to get more email opt ins. You have a tool that’s already been tested and proven to where you can take it, apply it in their business, make it match their branding, and then all of a sudden you get all those great results without having to code from scratch.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I think that was a mic drop I just heard at the end.
Tim Paige:
I have to be careful. I’m not tapping my mic very hard. It’s very expensive and nice.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, what mic have you got?
Tim Paige:
I use a Sennheiser 416.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, okay. I’ve not bought one of those yet. I’ve got the blue YETI here and I’ve got an ATR T100 at the office. So both kind of more budget. Yeah, yeah, still great.
Tim Paige:
But I started out with the 2100 and then I’ve changed many mics from there. But this is a great voiceover mic.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You sound great on it. It nice and bassy.
Tim Paige:
Thank you. I sound very bassy, very low.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Any bass on yours? I have to usually put it on mine in audacity. It just has some bass and change the pitch to make me sound a bit more like Barry White.
Tim Paige:
Oh, yeah, I like it. I do. I do have the furthest thing from a low voice, so it’s. I need. I need my nice microphone to make me sound good.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Nope, you sound good. Hey, mate, you use WordPress? I believe I do. It’s true. Is there a plugin you’d recommend?
Tim Paige:
Yeah, this is, like, so basic. Everybody uses Pretty Link, and I like Pretty Link, but I prefer redirection. Why?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I was just about to say why.
Tim Paige:
I think it was either Pat Flynn or maybe the Internet Business Mastery guys. Somebody a long time ago recommended it, and I’ve been using it ever since, and it’s just always been really easy. And I’ve had a couple of pretty links. Not like, had them break that. The Pretty Link didn’t work anymore, and I didn’t know about it for a long time, and that drove me nuts. I’ve never had it happen with redirection, so I just stuck with redirection.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And. And to be honest, like, Pretty Link, it’s a bit of a naff name. Just putting it out there, really.
Tim Paige:
Right. Redirection makes perfect sense.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I use redirection and drink Jameson whiskey.
Tim Paige:
I’ll tell you what, if I really want to get my links working, I use redirection. Why do I do that? I tell you what. Because it works.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So if you’re listening right now and you want to hire Tim for his amazing voiceovers, head on over to the voiceoftimpage.com youm’ll expect to pay extortionate rates.
Tim Paige:
Oh, it’s just out of this world.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It’s extravagant, but you’ll get the best voiceovers ever. As he has just perfectly demonstrated throughout this entire podcast. And there have been a couple of times where I’ve actually wiped tears away from my eyes. Especially when you were doing the spam, mate. That was. That was just epic. I actually want to pay you to read my spam so that I’ll read my spam. It would be amazing.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I.
Tim Paige:
You know, maybe I’ll put up a Fiverr account for it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, so quick. I see what you did there. I like that.
Tim Paige:
This is how we. We just. We just wrapped it back around. You know, everything came full circle in this. Yeah, great.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It’s funny, I have to. I always have to try and find Segways as well. Like, especially when people go off tangent. I’m like. I’m like, how can I segue back into this? Next question.
Tim Paige:
Yeah, there Was no segueing.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, no. There’s. There’s literally been none. It’s just been like that film jumper. You know, you’re gonna get a lot
Tim Paige:
of complaints from this episode.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I doubt it very much because, to be honest, many episodes are like this. In fact, they’ve kind of gone. I would say they’ve gone downhill or uphill. I don’t know. But listeners, please, feedback. But I think this is episode 28. No, it’s 29. This is episode 29.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And I think I started off quite nervous and scared, but I knew I had to do it. So it was all very formal. And then slowly but surely, I’ve kind of got more and more relaxed. I’ve gone away from trying to do fixed questions all the time and trying to get, like, have this conversation. You’ve dropped so much value. It’s been amazing. And I’ve not even had to ask you for it. You’ve just dropped and dropped and dropped it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And I’ve learned so much. I know the people listening have learned so much. So I definitely think I’ve improved over time. And I really enjoy this style far more than what I think I was originally doing.
Tim Paige:
Well, that’s. Yeah. The biggest piece of advice I ever give anybody when they’re gonna start a podcast is to. To be themselves and have fun. Like, it’s. It’s amazing how many podcasts there are out there for everything. If you’re gonna start a podcast, there’s already somebody doing it. Just be you.
Tim Paige:
And that’s gonna make all the difference in the world. That’s what’s gonna make people wanna listen. Like, come on, there are developers, podcasts out there, but this is the one that’s fun and you wanna listen to it and you get some cool stuff while at the same time hearing somebody read their spam in a funny voice.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
There you go. That’s gonna go on our website now as a review.
Tim Paige:
Buy you. That’ll be $5.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, yeah, $5. I love it. So speaking of resources like fiverr.com. oh, no, I don’t think I can read. I don’t think I can quite segue into that. But anyway, before we do go, are there some. Is there any, like, daily or weekly or monthly reading other than comics that you do to kind of just kind of infect your brain with amazing business y sort of knowledge?
Tim Paige:
I. I read our blog, actually the leadpages blog, all the time, because, so, yeah, we have so many great writers that I. I’ve got plenty to read there. I like I also like a lot of the stuff that digital marketer puts out.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mm.
Tim Paige:
I like a lot of everywhere.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
They’re good. They all retargeting pixels. On YouTube, my Facebook and my Twitter, I get letters in the post.
Tim Paige:
Yeah, yeah, they’re great. They, they just, they’re marketers. It’s great. Yes. You know, I like a lot of, of Chris Ducker stuff. I think he’s got a lot of fun stuff and, and yeah, those are the big things. And then the other thing is, is, is coaching like one on one coaching anybody who’s an entrepreneur or you know, anything, anything where you have to have a lot of personal responsibility. I mean, I know you do if you work for somebody else and that’s great too.
Tim Paige:
I’m not downing that. But if you, if you have any kind of an entrepreneurial type thing that you do in your life, one on one coaching, whether it’s, I don’t know, business coaching something or other coaching, whatever, it’s invaluable because you get that, that, that unbiased opinion. I have, I have, have a few voiceover coaches, but I have one in particular who is, is, is, I would say like, you know, 50% life coach, 50% voiceover coach. Because he, you know, we always start the call by talking about what’s been going on and we get into my head and he like releases the demons and then we go into the, into the talk and I think anybody, anybody needs that. That’s more to me more valuable than any books or blogs or anything.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s awesome. It’s finished. You say that as well because I’ve been in conversations with a business coach, getting some quotes right now for myself because I’ve been at this business game for many, many years and have read many books, but would like now to talk to some people who have been there and done it and yeah, share some of those experiences. That’s freaking awesome. So, well, I’m gonna put that down then because normally I would ask what’s the one piece of business advice that you would give to people before you go that they can apply today? But if you’re happy with, unless you’ve got something else to throw into the mix, I think I’m going to leave it with people to perhaps go ahead and reach out if you’re not, you know, if you can go find someone, you know, to help you in the business coaching area of life. You know, it’s so good to talk to someone, to have a mentor, etc. I think that’s such good advice. It’s something that I’ve been lucky enough to have people who have coached me at no charge because they’ve been people, you know, who wanted to see me grow, they’ve been good friends, etc.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Obviously they’ve now moved on and I’ve moved on beyond what their capacity is. So I’m now investing in it. But it’s definitely such valuable advice.
Tim Paige:
No, what you’re talking about is your competitors who are trying to steer you into the ground. Right? That’s your coaches.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, they weren’t even in the same industry as me through the church. So if you can’t tell I’m a God bother. That’s my sister in law calls me. What a God bother. Such a cool title. Well, yeah, like we’ll come back from churches like, oh, you’ve been bothering God again.
Tim Paige:
Yeah, sure.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So, yeah, so I’ve been very lucky through my network at the church to know a lot of business guys who are very successful and they’ve, you know, given a lot of kind of help for free. But yeah, I kind of need to pay some people now who are at a level that I want to be at. And so I’m going to pay those people and get their advice. So that’s freaking very wise. So, mate, we’re going to need to wrap up because this beer is empty. It’s been empty for a while now.
Tim Paige:
I can’t finish it without that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m joking, man. Mate, how can people connect with you? And then we’ll do the long kind of waving goodbye like. No. Yeah, and all that sort of stuff.
Tim Paige:
Well, you can get me on Twitter. Twitter at Tim the Page P, A I G E or Team the Paige. I don’t know. Yeah, so there’s that. You can if you. Only if you like comic books. Should you follow me on Instagram, the Voice of Tim Page, because it’s pretty much all I post on Instagram is comic books.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Most people like comic books, mate.
Tim Paige:
It’s fun, man. It’s fun. And then if you want to join us for a webinar, if you want to learn from me how you can grow your email list and quickly turn those subscribers into paying customers, you should go to leadpages webinar.com leadpages webinar.com the only place to register for a great webinar. Yes, you should do that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m gonna cut that out and put that right at the beginning as well. Just, just so you know.
Tim Paige:
Perfect. That was my superhero voice or like my, I don’t know. Bad commercial and. Yeah, that’s it. That’s enough. That’s enough places to get a hold of me. Any more than that and you’re gonna be like, God, I’m sick of this guy.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, that was awesome. I think you’re amazing, mate. I’ve had such a good laugh, and
Tim Paige:
I feel the same way about you.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Really? That’s so kind. That got me in the. Feels
Tim Paige:
just like. Just like Mexican Donald.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Exactly. You just put in a bit of magic there for me, mate.
Tim Paige:
This.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
This whole podcast has been magic. I really appreciate your time, mate. Thanks so much for being on. And I only hope I can convince you to come back another day.
Tim Paige:
My pleasure.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
My pleasure. Very good, mate. Take care of yourself, mate.
Tim Paige:
You too.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
See ya. So what did you think of that, then? Tim is an absolute blast, and I would love to get your feedback on how we’re doing over at the WP Innovator Facebook group. You can find that on LeeJacksonDev.com group. That’s LeeJacksonDev.com group and you’ll be redirected. If you’re on Facebook right now, just tap in WP Innovator and you’ll see it as a closed group. Remember, everything that we talk about in there is private, that only members can see it. So you’ve got a safe space as a web designer, as a design agency, a freelancer, whomever you are, just to come in, share your thoughts, ask questions, and enjoy the community. All right, guys, have an awesome week.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Don’t forget to keep innovating, and we’ll see you next Monday. It.
