Note: This transcript was auto generated then some poor soul sat and listened to it, and followed through correcting any mistakes they spotted. Please however expect human error and shout if you spot an issue. Email: lee [fancy curly symbol] trailblazer.fm.
Verbatim text
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Welcome to episode number 116 of the Agency Trailblazer podcast. This is your host, Lee Matthew Jackson, although you probably knew that. And on today’s show, we have Jason Resnick. He is going to be talking all about freelancing in New York City, one of the most expensive cities to be freelancing in. So this is a fascinating story. So sit back, get your coffee and enjoy the ride.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
This podcast is brought to you by the Agency Trailblazer community. Is agency life stressing you out? Then it is our mission to help you build an agency that you love. We’ve created a community which includes the Agency Reset Roadmap that will allow you to get your agency back on the right track. We also have lots of noble, straight to the point, easy to consume workshops. We have a thriving community of other agency owners. And we all wrap up every month with a mastermind call with myself and sometimes a special guest where we unpack your questions. For more details, check out agencytrailblazer.com.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Welcome to a conversation with me, your beautiful, handsome, well, devilishly handsome host, Lee Matthew Jackson Jackson, and the equally devilishly handsome with far more hair, Jason Resnick. How are you today?
Jason:
I’m very well. How are you?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I am. I’m very well as well. I just told my daughter. I got a haircut today, by the way.
Jason:
Did you?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yes, I did.
Jason:
Oh, in honor of—thank you. Oh, thank you. That is really kind. If we were on video, I’d be, you know, like absolute raise it off. The whole lot like me.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, not that close. Not quite as drastic. I just told my daughter I’m going to have a call with somebody in New York. And she was like, wow, that’s so cool. I put her to bed and everything. I read bedtime stories. And she was like, New York, that’s amazing. You’re in New York, aren’t you? Before we carry on.
Jason:
Yes, yes. Yeah, I thought so.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
New York. Go on. How do you say coffee?
Jason:
Coffee.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, wow. Water.
Jason:
Well, not quite as good as the stereotype, is it?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No. Coffee.
Jason:
Well, you know, when we’re in amongst ourselves, that accent really comes out.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Really? Oh, you were just, that was just Queen’s English for me, so I could understand you. Is that right?
Jason:
Kind of, yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Jason, I’m always in danger of having these really long, random conversations for about 10 minutes before we actually get into introducing who you are. So what I’ll do is I’m going to shut up, and I’m just going to let you introduce yourself to everyone. Is that okay?
Jason:
Sounds great. Do it.
Jason:
So, as Lee Matthew Jackson said, I’m a New Yorker. My name is Jason. I am a web developer, freelancer, consultant. I help established online businesses, e-commerce businesses, any business online that’s sort of taking a transaction, increase their conversions through strategy and implementation. And I help other freelancers as well. I don’t know, living and build recurring revenue in their business.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s so cool. How did you get into web development initially? Back in the time machine, if you can remember that far back.
Jason:
Yeah, I do. It was actually, I was in college, and I was cutting my economics class.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
What’s an economics class? Is that like boring finance stuff?
Jason:
Yeah, it’s like, you know, forget it. It’s like, it is what it is. And what’s even worse is that it was a long-distance learning class. So, it was basically watching the most boring television show for two hours ever. So, it was something, basically what it was, was that was where I found web development, right? Like my, you know, like I literally cut that class. And my friend who was also in college was basically emailing me how to write HTML. And I was just throwing up, you know, HTML pages on my, you know, my student’s account, you know, online in the computer lab, being a geek, basically waiting for my next class. Why not? Learning supply and demand and all that other stuff was not really something that I was too keen on learning too much.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That would make you not really selling it either.
Jason:
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, for me, I went to college as a computer science major. But in and amongst that, I kind of like, I didn’t really like it all that much. I didn’t like the programming aspect of it, which is pretty much the whole thing of it. And when I learned about web development and seeing like the instant gratification of it, like, you know, you save the file and you refresh a page and it works. I was like, hey, I can get behind this. And that was my first, my first go at it. And I got a couple of internships while I was still working, while I was still going to school, doing browser testing and all that kind of thing. And I still liked it after that. So at that point, you know, I guess the rest is history, really. I mean, I worked for Fortune 100 companies. I worked for small agencies. I worked, I’ve been working for myself for the better part of 15 years, part-time and full-time, eight years. And yeah, web development’s it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And if you look at this picture, guys, he doesn’t look any older than 21. He’s packed a lot.
Jason:
Oh, yeah. Close 21 years.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You’re such a great liar.
Jason:
I know. It’s actually really worrying how good I am. I actually convince myself sometimes, to be honest.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I love the fact that you went into computer science and programming was a part of it. And yet you found that boring and discovered web design. And you’re totally right. I had the exact conversation today. A guy called Mike Campbell from the Agency Trailblazer community. And I’d been sharing inside of there how excited I still get 20 years later writing HTML and seeing it happen on the screen. And we’re just talking HTML, CSS. We’re not even going into JavaScript or PHP or anything further. We’re just talking about HTML. It’s like being able to tell someone, left a bit, that’s it, right a bit, perfect. And then just that instant gratification. It’s strange. And I’m glad that someone else has just said it without me prompting you.
Jason:
Yeah. I mean, for me.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m not alone.
Jason:
For me, that’s how it was. And, you know, and I did this in the late 90s. So, you know, going back tables and that’s kind of, you know, CSS wasn’t even a thing at that point, really. But, yeah, I mean, just to be able to, like, click save and then, you know, see it happen. I was like, oh. Because back then it was like, okay, I got to write a line of code. And then I have to run this command, have it all compile and wait a couple of minutes. And then to see that I forgot, like, a semicolon. And I’m like, oh, jeez. I’m so restrained. You know, so this was something, you know, I got into. And, you know, for me, I’m more of like the back end. I always like to say, like, you know where you click the login button when you go on Facebook? Well, the code behind that login button, that’s what I do. Not on Facebook, but just, you know, when I’m talking to, like, hey, what do you do? You know, to random people or my mom. And she’s like, I still don’t understand what you really do. I’m like, well.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I create magic, mom.
Jason:
Yeah. I create magic. I say I make things clicky.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s good. Well, how did you get, I mean, HTML, CSS, that’s like late 90s. You’re getting excited about that. How did you transition into back end? Because creating a login script is no mean feat. And it’s very different to HTML and CSS. Like I said, like HTML, CSS, you’re basically saying left a bit, right a bit. Yeah, that’s it. Perfect. Whereas if you’re getting into login, you’re not talking PHP functions. This is a complicated language. How did you, did you self-teach that? Did you do that during your internships? Where did you pick it up?
Jason:
Definitely didn’t learn it at school. I always liked the way in which, you know, somebody could come up with an idea, not know how to make it happen. And then by putting some code on the screen to make it happen, right? So, you know, like when, this is going to sound very, very overly simplistic and stuff, but like when somebody comes up with a static mock-up and then they translate it online, yes, there’s a lot of work in there, but you basically have a vision of what that looks like, right? With, you know, data and any sort of, you know, transaction online, whether it’s monetarily or even if it’s just an email signup, right? Like there’s some abstract thing there that has to be tangible, right? And for me that, I always liked that. And, you know, I, like I said, I got a couple of internships, a lot of, you know, they were browser testing. And then, um, I went to work for a major cable corporation here and, you know, I had a, an awesome mentor there, which I still keep in touch with today. Um, and this is going back, you know, 20 years. He taught me basically Java development. And from that, that day forward, I was like, okay, I was hooked. I was able to be able to build these applications, um, and have, you know, businesses build their business online. And that’s what I really love doing.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So mate, at what point did you start to find your own clients? You mentioned that you’ve been in this for around 15 years working part-time and then eight years full-time. How did the very early days, 15 years ago, if you can possibly remember that far back, can you remember the first paid project that you got and how you got it and how you continued to build on that?
Jason:
My first paid project, it was just word of mouth, really. It was, and a lot of my work is still that way, but back then it was, Hey, I know this guy. I know a guy that can do that. Right. And it was like, because I was even freelancing when I was working straight out of college. And it was because of the skills of being able to make a webpage. And at that time it was a nice to have, it was like a pool in your backyard kind of thing for a business, right? Like you didn’t have to have a website. Um, but if you did, you stand, you stood out. My first recollection I can call, I can have of a client was some guy that had gotten a referral because I was working at a local retail store. Um, and he was a friend of one of my coworkers there and he wanted to put basically like an online membership together. Yeah. And so that was my first, I guess, real big client in the freelancing space. But you know, it was very basic. It was just like, you know, sign up and be able to log in and then you have access to specific content. Like it wasn’t even like the men, it’s not what you would classify as a membership today, but you know, it was, it was something I was like, Hey, and I can make money off of this and do like a side hustle. I always knew at a very early age that I wasn’t fit for sitting at somebody else’s desk. And I knew this even like, there was a part of my brain where I feel like, which maybe a little bit more mature than the rest part of it. Um, but it was more like, you know, it was, it was a time in which I knew, you know, I think it was like 13 or 14 where I was like, you know, I’m never going to sit at a job that I hate. And this was at a time where I was working as a stock boy. Right. And I was, I hated the job. I just kind of knew that I wanted to be in business for myself. I didn’t come from a family of entrepreneurs or anything like that. It was just something that for me, I wanted to do it and I wanted to do it really because I wanted to spend time with my family, friends, people that I wanted to spend time with and have the flexibility of being able to do the things I want to do without having to say, Hey, I need today off or something like that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. That’s horrible. Isn’t it? Have to like go cap in hand for permission to somebody else just to get some time with your family. And then you feel really guilty and then you return the next day and it’s just not a good feeling.
Jason:
Yep. I can definitely resonate with that feeling of being in a job that you really, really hate. And you know, there’s something deep down inside of you that just wants to do something for yourself and to be creative as it were. So you want to create your own space, do your own thing for people, add value into their lives. You don’t want to be doing it for somebody else and feel undervalued. I mean, stock boy, I worked in a butcher’s. That was, that was what I was doing. And I was cleaning all of these surfaces. It was horrible. And that was the day like you, I was like, I don’t want to be working for other people the rest of my life.
Jason:
Yeah. I mean, I was a stock boy in a fabric store. That’s nice. And so.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Sounds comfy.
Jason:
Yeah. Right. Sure. And so pretty much like all I got to look at all day was old ladies, you know? So it wasn’t something that I was too keen on doing. And I remember the exact time when I said that to myself too. I was actually sitting on the floor organizing zippers on like a little rack, like making sure the colored, like all the white zippers were in one hook and all the black ones were in. I was just like, oh, this is terrible. I don’t want to do this ever.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Now, you mentioned something that pricked my ears up when you said you created your freelance business to be able to spend more time with your family. And that is the ideal. That’s what many freelancers and agency owners, that’s why they created their business. They want to spend more time with their family. And yet they’re probably listening to you thinking, but that’s just a dream. Because myself included back in the day, and I know a lot of people who listen to the show and have reached out to me in the past, they are working for themselves, but unfortunately they’re having to work 18 hour days very often or even at weekends or just feel like they can never switch off. I assume 15 years in now, you have been able to find that work-life balance?
Jason:
Yes. I think for, well, for one, I think work-life balance, I don’t believe that term, believe in that term, right? I think it’s all blurred line. But yes. And that’s a fair point. I’ve basically structured my business so that my clients respect who I am and what I stand for and they respect me as an equal. They don’t look at me as just a pair of hands on a keyboard. So I have business hours. We have regularly scheduled calls. There’s processes around my business, how they email me, the times I call them, all of these things. And I think a lot of that stuff is very important. Like I don’t have calls on Monday. And that’s so that I know that my week starts off good. I do client work and I get things done. I do client work and I get things done. And I know that I’m not behind the eight ball on Tuesday because I got t-boned with 13 calls, right? So it’s just a matter of putting that structure in place and those standard operating procedures in place so that you can run your business and it doesn’t run you.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s really good. You can run your business so it doesn’t run you. And putting that time aside, especially at the beginning of the week, it’s insane, isn’t it? If you get backed off from a Sunday, so on Monday morning and you’re just hit by people, I need this, I need that, I need the other. And you absolutely need nothing done. You don’t get your week planned. And it’s so stressful. It’s only something I learned about two years ago, to be honest. And I’ve run agencies for like eight years and I just like run in on a Monday morning going, ah, and then by Tuesday, like just sit down and like, what the hell happened?
Jason:
Yeah. And you know what it is? It’s a matter of making sure your clients are who you want to work with, right? So like even during the sales process and things like that, like, you know, if I feel like it’s not going to be a good fit personality wise, you know, I just say that. I say, look, I don’t think I’m the best person for the job for you. You know, and I’ll refer them to somebody else and stuff. It’s not that they’re bad people. It’s just might not work for us. Right. You know, I’ve built my business, but I’ve also built the filtering system because I’m just myself. I don’t have a sales team. I don’t have another team behind me that’s doing the coding and all that other stuff. So I kind of have to do all of this stuff. I’ve put in front a filtering system that I’m still evolving like 10 years later. Right. So if they go through the filtering system or we get onto a call, then that’s like the final step, so to speak. If they can’t follow the simple instructions before that, then we don’t work together.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No. And that’s a very good point. But even during the call, presumably that’s like the pre-kick, that’s the call to decide whether or not you’re finally going to work together.
Jason:
Yes. I presume even in that you are going to be picking up on any particular sign. So if there’s alarm bell questions they’re asking, then you have got the strength to say, actually, I don’t think we’re going to work together. I don’t think it will work well together. But, you know, I do know Jeffrey or Melissa over here that also specialize in e-commerce or whatever the project is going to be.
Jason:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’ve learned over the years to trust my gut. Yes. There’s been so many times where I’ve gone against that gut feeling and it’s been a disaster. So I basically have a two red flag rule. If my gut, inside my gut, I feel that there’s two red flags, then I don’t take the project.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s really wise. I’ve taken on several projects in the past, had the gut feel that it’s not a good idea, but the heads overruled it because you look at the bank and you look at the amount of money that this client is willing to pay and you’re like, that’s going to shore us up for three months of revenue. So we’re going to have to do this. And then you end up doing it and you work six to 12 months on the very same project and make zero profit. In fact, you make a loss. And I am now speaking from experience of multiple occasions I’ve gone against my gut.
Jason:
I’ve been there and done that many times as well. And I think that that’s the cause of the feast or famine, right? Like you put yourself into the famine part by doing that, where you’re thinking like, hey, look, this is great. You know, you get all excited. It’s like a shiny new thing to play with kind of thing. And even though the project sounds great, but the client may not so much if you actually take a step back and look at it or vice versa, right? Like maybe the client’s great. The name, the brand that comes with that client, but the project is not so much like on par with what you want to do. You know, you got to kind of take a step back and look at it more objectively than emotionally.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I mean, that’s a good point. Just the other day, I had someone approaching me who had a great budget and they also seem like a great client. However, they actually were into gambling. And I know that’s not my forte for a couple of reasons. Number one, I’ve got people in the family that were addicted. So I don’t really like to get involved with that. But also, I don’t really understand all the rules and regulations around gambling anyway. So I was just able to push back. I mean, maybe 10 years ago, I might not have been so strong and I would have perhaps even taken on the work. But nowadays, it’s just a case of even if the people are very nice, if what it is that you’re working on is slightly outside the specialism or is something that you don’t necessarily agree with, then it’s probably wise to just say, thank you, but no, thank you.
Jason:
Yeah, and the thing too is, I think, especially if you’re just starting out or you experience a downturn in work or something like that, I think you have to know that there’s more work there. So if you turn down work, it doesn’t mean that you’re never going to get another job offer or another lead come in or something like that. So over the years, I know that if I turn down work, then I’m not eating that time away from the potential of a project that is a good fit, right? So I want to be able to work with the clients that I want to work with. I want to work on the projects that I want to work with. And like I said earlier, I want to be able to guard my time. So if I want to stop on a random Tuesday and go spend some time with my wife and son, then I want to be able to do that. I don’t want to be locked in because there’s this client that’s like, hey, you need to do this and I need this by, you know, this afternoon and a lot of the stuff. You know, it’s just I don’t I don’t work like that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Amen. I’m taking this Thursday off to be with my wife. Me and you are like kindred spirits.
Jason:
Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And the weird thing is as well is we hang around in all the same groups and we’ve only started chatting like in the last six, well, what, six weeks or something?
Jason:
Yes.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And like I put a comment and you’re like, hello, I’m in here too. And then I like found you like in several other groups. I’m like, no way. We hang in the same places. How come we’ve not been speaking for the last few years?
Jason:
That is funny.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And it was. It was like even in the weirdest. I was like, wait, he’s here too? Like, what’s going on? And you’re a newpreneur. You’re everywhere. It’s amazing.
Jason:
When you showed up there, I was like, OK, WordPress. OK, fine. Maybe freelance space. OK, good. And then you were over there and I was like, wait, what? What’s going on?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, we think alike.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, I think a lot of it as well is, like you said, you know, when you’ve got you have this vision of what you want to create. And over the last, say, three to four years, my vision has been to create a business that allows me to take time off and be with the family, especially since dad died. Dad died four years ago. And just before dad died, I was working 18 hour days, et cetera. And I remember one of the last conversations I had with him was me really, really stressed saying I can’t really talk to him because I had a client project on. And I really regret that because I could have had that last conversation with my dad. So after he died, I was like, right, I now have this vision of I want to create a business that allows me to take time off, allows me to have this Thursday off with my wife where we’re going to go shopping and have lunch together, et cetera. So as a result of that mission, that’s led me on a whole lot of different paths kind of outside the WordPress circle and finding people like Chris Tucker from Youpreneur Summit, et cetera, who is all about creating the brand of you. And you’re very good at this as well. You are creating a brand of Jason Resnick. And yes, you have the services around you, but you’ve also got your educational part for freelancers, et cetera, and you’ve got your feast membership community, et cetera. You’ve got all of these things that you’re growing around you. And all of these are facilitating what you want to do, which is creating a good lifestyle that allows you to spend time with your family, but also allows you to help lots of people. So I think it’s not a surprise, I guess, in the grand scheme of things that we’re both on a very similar mission. It was probably very likely we were going to bump into each other somehow, but it was quite funny.
Jason:
I think you’re also in the membership community, aren’t you, with Mike Morrison? Is that right?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No.
Jason:
Oh, okay. I have looked at that very closely.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, okay. Well, there you go. Nearly. But you’re not in Content Marketing Academy, are you?
Jason:
No, I’m not. There’s one thing I’m not.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. There you go. I just think of content marketing, so.
Jason:
But I do use the internet, so we’ve got that in common.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yes, we do.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Now, with regards to actually generating leads, you’re a freelancer. You live in New York. New York is not known to be a cheap place to live.
Jason:
No, it’s not.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So I presume you have a big challenge on your hands, making sure that you’re turning over a good amount of money to balance everything up. How are you generating leads? You know, over the last few years, you did say that a lot of it is recommendation, but are you doing anything beyond recommendation?
Jason:
Yeah. It was actually, it was funny. Somebody in the Feast community, in my membership site, they had asked me what my second biggest lead generation channel is. So I thought for a second, second, why wouldn’t you want to know what the first is? But they said, well, first is probably referral because that’s most everybody’s work is that. And they were partly right. But it got me to look at what my second channel was. And for me, after looking at it, it’s referrals from vendors. So yes, it’s referrals, but it’s building the relationships up with people at WooCommerce, people at Prosperous, people at Drip, you know, and several other plugins that I use. Because what happens is, is I, I’ve specialized my business. So I’m in constant communication with their support teams, their product teams, and that they’ve started to recognize my name so that when their customers ask for features that they’re never going to do or custom things that, you know, that product doesn’t do, inevitably these vendors have these, I don’t know, VIP lists, you know, consultant lists or preferred vendors lists, whatever those lists are that they reference. And then they refer people, their customers already referred to me, right? So they’re kind of qualified in the way that at least I knew I use their technology, right? And that’s been a huge thing for me, especially my business is all recurring based, you know, it’s about 95% recurring, I don’t take off one off projects. So for me, the average lifespan of one of my clients is usually about 14 months. So I don’t need to generate leads all the time. But I do generate leads based on referrals, but I’ve built in referral kind of campaigns to my existing clients, as well as my past clients. I do outreach to those vendors that I use. I also do content marketing, podcasts, things like that, where, you know, I make myself known to the community so that this way, when you never know where a project might come from, right? So for me, you know, I’ve, I’ve got clients all over the map. I’ve got nonprofits, I have business coach, I do membership websites, e-commerce stores, all sorts of things. And they’ve come from all various different kinds of things. And for me, it’s, it’s all about communication, right? And being genuine too about it. Like, I don’t, not saying that these services are good, but like reply.io and those kinds of things that just blanket cold emails out. That’s something I’ve never done. I’ve never spent any money on ads or anything like that. It’s just for me, when I’m working with a client, even in the midst of a project, once we reach a certain milestone, I do like a little celebration with them, whether it’s sending them off a gift card to Starbucks or whatever like that, or I basically create like that memorable moment with them. And then I say, look, we’ve solved this problem. If you have any other colleagues, friends, family that are running a business that have a similar problem and you wouldn’t mind referring me, I’d appreciate it. And those kinds of mechanisms that I’ve built in my business to do that have paid in spades.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
We so often are shy, aren’t we? To ask our clients for referrals. And yet they’re often one of our biggest fans, aren’t they? We’re their favorite and they love working with us and they’re more than happy to refer us to other people. I’ve had clients say, why would I refer you? I want you for me. I’m like, well, I appreciate the love, but at the same time.
Jason:
I’d like to eat. And also, you know, you know, that site was bug free. Well, I may just inject a bug. I’m pretty sure that’s blackmail and that’s probably not a good way of getting business.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah.
Jason:
I don’t know about that. But the other thing too is it’s a matter of like, you know, a lot of people gloss over those celebrations, right? Like I think they’re so important. And I was actually having a conversation with somebody last week about this too, is that, look, we get so down on ourselves when there’s a mistake or sites down, or there was a bug that was up there for a couple of days or something like that, right? Like we get so down on ourselves, but yet when we push, push changes up or a new feature up or brand new design or whatever it is, we just like, Hey, you launched congratulations in an email. And that’s it. You kind of move on with your day. Like those are big, huge milestones. And if you can take that moment in time and capture that in some way with just a simple gesture, that goes a long way in helping those bad moments, right? Because they’re like, Hey, look, you know, Jason sent me gift cards or a gift basket or a handwritten note or any of those things over the course of the year, we’ve accomplished a lot of things, you know? So, you know, if automation went out at 9am instead of 9pm, not a big deal, right? So I think a lot of times that if you could create those memorable moments too, that goes a long way because that’s the sticking point too in a lot of people’s minds, especially past clients, right? Like if you haven’t talked to a client in a year or two, well, if you had, if you created a great experience for them, then they’re going to know somebody, they’re going to have a conversation with somebody, some random party or something like that. And they say, Hey, look, I know this guy or girl. And, you know, because they remember those specific moments in time.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s really good. Creating memorable moments and celebrating the positives. Cause we do, don’t we? I’m just thinking now of all the clients and all those, those bad times I’ve had with the clients because I screwed something up or something was screwed up by somebody and the site was down 24 hours or whatever it was. And it leaves such a negative imprint, doesn’t it? And it becomes that memory of that client. And then you don’t want to talk with that client anymore. They don’t want to talk to you anymore or whatever it is. But creating, I guess it’s almost like the Disney-esque sort of thing, you know, creating those memorable moments, those magical moments. They are actually what will stand out above all of those other things. And I’m going to confess, I don’t really do this, and I’m totally going to steal this idea. Just so you know.
Jason:
That’s okay. I stole it from, I think, I think it was the first person who I heard. And, and it’s so funny because as human beings, right? Like we, we, when somebody buys a house, you give them a housewarming gift, right? Like you celebrate their thing. It has nothing to do with you. They invited you over for, you know, to see their thing, right? You know, when somebody has a baby, you come over and you bring a gift, right? Like we do these things as human beings, but like once you get online, you don’t do any of these things. Like it’s weird, right? So I heard this from Laura Elizabeth, like a number of years ago at W Freelance Conference. And she said that she kind of talked through it real quick. But what she said was her tactic was to get content and assets from clients. She would send them a gift card and essentially guilt them to going to spend some time at a coffee shop and work on what she needs them to work on. You know, I think I remember telling me that story. She was like, hey, that’s not a bad idea, but you’re creating that memory too. Like, you know, like, hey, look, she, she forced me to do this thing and I can’t use this gift card. Cause she wrote me a note to say, I should use this gift card for something else. And I’m like, okay. You know, but you know, I kind of, it was just like, hey, you know what? That’s it. That’s like, like I said, we, we as human beings, we celebrate other human beings, accomplishments and life events and stuff. So why can’t we do that in business?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I literally have behind me on the shelf, a book Laura sent me, Creativity, Inc. She came on the podcast. I bought one of her products and a week later I had a gift from her and that always stuck in my mind. Now she told me that story, but I hadn’t quite connected it the way you’ve said with regards to celebrating those milestones. So helping imprint with your client with some sort of special gift. Hey, we got the site live or Hey, we added this new feature. Like right now we’re working on like a new WooCommerce module for a site that’s been around for years and they’re going to get this exciting new feature so that people can, so that they can get their suppliers to buy discounted products and all that sort of stuff. I’m going to send a freaking gift when we finish that to celebrate with them.
Jason:
Oh my gosh. Why did I not realize?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
This is why I do the podcast, mate. It’s called free consultancy.
Jason:
Yeah. Right. I mean, that’s, that’s the thing like it. And if you, if you work hard and you, you pulled late hours with your clients and your clients have done the same with you, there’s some level of personal relationship there too. Like, you know what they like or don’t like or something like that. And if you can tailor that gift, like a gift basket of beer or, you know, a gift basket of sweets or whatever it is, like it goes a long way.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. And again, that’s exactly why she bought me that book because she knows I like Disney and Pixar and animation. I love that too. That’s what that book’s about. Flipping genius. I actually feel like I may have been played.
Jason:
Because I then went and bought her course the other week for Larissa. She’s just launching a new, I’ll put a link in the show notes, but she’s just launching a new course for getting developers into design.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yep.
Jason:
Because obviously Larissa, I’ve trained up as a developer, but she’s interested in design. So Laura’s just launched a course teaching developers how to design. And I just went ahead and bought that because I was thinking, oh, it’s Laura. I’ll buy it. Laura, I need to support Laura. She’s awesome.
Jason:
See, you were hoodwinked.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’ve been played, man. And I’m quite happy about it. That’s how Disney get away with it, isn’t it, mate?
Jason:
Yep. Definitely. They create magical moments and then you hand them more money. Look at Star Wars. Jeez. That thing didn’t come out before Christmas for any, you know, just arbitrary date.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Actually, on Star Wars, I mean, we’re not allowed to give away spoilers. Have you seen the latest one?
Jason:
No, I haven’t.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, mate. Okay. Well, that ends that line of conversation. I think it’s, I think the statute of limitations on spoilers has not yet passed. So we should probably just move on.
Jason:
Except for the fact that I think my nine-year-old nephew messed it up for me, but that’s all right.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Ah, gutted. So no worries. When you said nine-year-old nephew, I thought for a minute you were going to mention your son. You shared a picture of your son the other day telling me that he was now doing CSS for you. I was like, what? 13 months old. 13 months old, hey? Already doing CSS.
Jason:
Yep.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Actually, I do wonder, you know, like for our children, what’s the web going to look like? I wonder. And this isn’t really a question you have to answer unless you’ve got an amazing theory. But I was thinking for my daughter, I’ve been teaching her HTML and that she’s now 11 and she’s learning how to use Scratch to make simple programs. But I’ve also been teaching her a lot of HTML to make her own websites. But I was kind of thinking, I wonder what’s going to happen in 15 years’ time. Like, am I still going to be into the web? Are websites going to write themselves?
Jason:
I think it’s going to be more like, I think it’s going to get close to like what Jarvis is for like Iron Man.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, that would be cool.
Jason:
I think it’s going to be like, because there’s just too many movies out there, like Minority Reports and stuff like that, where you start thinking and the computer does it. And I’m even, there are times where I’m like, I’ll be looking at my dual monitor and I’ll look over at one window, but realize I’m typing in another window on the other side. And be like, oh, why can’t my computer just know that I’m looking at this one? And just switch. Why do I have to do the command tab thing?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You’ve clearly thought about this.
Jason:
I have.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Because you’re just kind of blowing my mind a little bit now. And I’m thinking, that’s a great idea.
Jason:
Yeah. Come on. You know, everybody has a webcam on. And we know that there’s probably governments watching people through there. That’s why I put a little sticky tape over it. I’m just waving at mine right now. But, you know, why can’t we turn that on and have it follow our eye movement and do like some of that stuff? Like, come on. Somebody’s out there. Got to be smart enough to do that. Right?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. Yeah. Why not? So here’s a question for you. A lot of us, I mean, kind of carrying on from Laura, who’s teaching developers how to design. I mean, you can clearly, you’ve clearly been able to bridge the gap between design and development because your design is cool. I’m looking at rez.com. Guys, if you want to check it out, it’s re3z.com. That’s R-E-Z-Z-Z.com. Rez. How did you teach yourself design?
Jason:
To be perfectly honest with you, I did not design that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, there you go. You’ve outsourced.
Jason:
Yes. Yeah. Because there are better people, more smarter people, more creative people than I am at that. I know what looks good. I’m just not sure how to get there. So, you know, for a long time I did it on my own and I would either have a friend look at it and design a friend look at it, give me some pointers, tips and that. But then a couple of years ago, I said, look, talking about the business of you kind of thing. I said, look, I’m going to create some sort of personal brand, whatever that means, right? And wherever that’s going to take me. So I need somebody that is an expert on this stuff, right? So the branding aspect of it and the website was just, it was an arm of that. So, you know, she helped me work through my messaging. She helped me work through my all-encompassing colors, you know, like, you know, for me, red’s red. But, you know, there’s different kinds of red.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, she’s got a slightly different red for you, mate.
Jason:
Yes. More like an orangey red. I can’t quite decide.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Right.
Jason:
So it’s, you know, for me, it’s like even the logo itself, the logo itself is pretty cool because it’s, you know, it’s the brackets for code or whatever, right? And that’s kind of how I saw that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It wasn’t lost on me, mate.
Jason:
Well, there’s also three Zs in there too. There’s a faint little line in between connecting the two. Look at that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And I saw that faint line and I said to her and I said, and by the way, I keep saying hers, Megan Gray of House of Grays and she’s fantastic.
Jason:
Hey, House of Grays.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You know, I said, you know, it’s like, there’s a faint little line there. She goes, yeah, for the three Zs, if you look at it. And she kind of marked it up. I was like, holy cow, look at that. That’s awesome.
Jason:
I’ve only just worked out the whole time I’ve been trying to go three Zs and I’ve been like practically sat on my head. I’ve worked it out now. I see the three Zs. R-E-Z-Z-Z dot com. You’ve got to check this logo.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yep. It’s J and a R. It’s three Zs. And it’s also code all in a circle.
Jason:
Yep.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
This is why you get designers involved, guys.
Jason:
Yep. If you can’t design.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah.
Jason:
Stop trying to design. I’m preaching it myself as well. I saw some of my designs back in the day. You’ll know why.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mate, I would love to share some. I’m totally going to share some in the Facebook group at some point. But I have done some hideous work. And I mean, even Agency Trailblazer, they launched that. All the MVP was just me like slapping it all together top speed because I wanted to get the content out there. And I knew I was going to work with a designer. So we’ve got a designer lined up for mid-year next year, this year, sorry, to kind of do a proper brand and kind of update all of the work we did.
Jason:
Well, thank you very much.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But I kind of made it all up. So, and I know I’m not really a designer. I am definitely a back office. I love to do the code. Give me code anytime. I was getting stressed trying to do that design, mate. I should have got someone else involved. But because it was like such a short turnaround and we were going live on the 1st of January, I just figured I got to do this. I just got to. So I just went ahead and did it. But conversation we had last year with one of our business coaches, he just said, stop trying to do the sites yourself. You need an outside perspective. And you know, and you’ve admitted to me as well, to the coach, that you don’t necessarily enjoy the design aspect of things. You really love the code. So you need to outsource. So I’m glad you shared that with us and that you are honest. And I really do like what she did for you. It looks great. And I love the logo. And I love the color schemes as well. It works really well. So anyone listening, if you’re struggling to do your own site, even if you are a designer, sometimes it’s actually refreshing to get an outside perspective.
Jason:
Yeah. And she helped me a lot because she’s like, look, you know, your stuff, you know, your messaging on your site talks to other developers, not necessarily your clients that you were trying to attract and stuff. And so she got my mindset in the right frame. Instead of talking about features all the time, talk about benefits. So for me, now that I preach that all the time, I’m like, talk about the benefits of your thing, not the features of your thing. So yeah, she was fantastic.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And can we get another shout out for her name? I think we need to.
Jason:
Megan Gray of House of Grays.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Megan Gray. And that’s House of Grays. Dot com. We will check out her website. The other thing I like about if people go to the services page, I really like the typography, you know, so the mixture of like the two different fonts, but also the way it’s structured. And you’ve got the in date. You’ve got the indent going on on kind of like the subtitle. And then you’ve got the different colors and the, you know, zero one your website. But then the kind of the sans serif and the serif fonts, et cetera. It just looks so cool. Cool. Sorry. Ghoul. That’s that’s ghostly. That’s cool.
Jason:
Thanks. Appreciate it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No worries. House of Grays dot com. This feels like an editorial. Oh, dear. Right. Well, thank you, Mr. Jason Resnick, for all of your time. Before you go, a couple of things I want to ask to wrap up the show. First of all, I understand you have your feast community and you have some excellent free information for people to help them get the right sort of clients, either for their freelance business or for their agency in general. How can people get their hands on that?
Jason:
Sure. It’s a five part email course. It’s basically a different way to get the best kind of clients that you want on social media platforms, as well as Craigslist, by the way. Yes. Craigslist. I’ve gotten some of my best clients.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Without being dodgy?
Jason:
Yes. Wow. Okay. If you go to res.com slash agency trailblazer and then just sign in there and you’ll get a drip fed email course, videos and everything on how to set that up. It’s basically my lead gen process that I did when I first started out that I still use today.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Nice. And how can people find your podcast and connect with you?
Jason:
You can go to live in the feast.com or res.com and Twitter is usually my home away from home and I’m at res there. All three Z’s.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So are you res everywhere on the socials?
Jason:
Everywhere except for Instagram because there is one person that stole my name.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Everyone has one post.
Jason:
Oh my OCD. Oh my gosh. For about, I don’t know, 500 and something weeks ago. They only have one post. So if anybody wants to come out there and help me get that name back, I’d much appreciate it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
How about MySpace?
Jason:
MySpace. Yeah. I probably still have an account somewhere. And Bebo or whatever the old accounts were.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, you did mention you’ve been in the game for like 20 years, man. I thought you must.
Jason:
I did have a MySpace account at some point.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
How long has res been your username?
Jason:
That’s been my username since I was a teenager. That’s what I used to use as like, you know, for video games and stuff.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, mate. You probably got loads of accounts all over the web. I’m sure.
Jason:
I’m sure. I do. I used to be Leiby’s. I don’t know what the hell I came up with that for. I even owned the domain and named my business after it and everything for a while.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, that’s how I, you know, I had res. It was always two Zs. And then I signed up for, I think it was my Diablo account back in the day. And somebody had two Zs, but I really wanted to play and I couldn’t come up with anything else. I just was like, I’m just going to keep putting Zs until it takes it.
Jason:
Well, that’s how you get the right Instagram account. What you now need to do is just rebrand everything with four Zs and you’re done.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, I don’t have patience for that.
Jason:
301 redirects on the older man.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Too old for that.
Jason:
Oh, man. That’s great. Mate, you’ve been an absolute pleasure to hang out with. Thank you so much for your time.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Jason:
And we’ll see you online.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mate, that was an accidental rhyme. Oh, my gosh.
Jason:
That was a rhyme, too. That was three rhymes in a row. I could actually be a rapper.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I don’t think so.
Jason:
Oh, you’re going to tell me you can rap now, aren’t you?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, I can’t.
Jason:
Oh, mate. I thought you were going to just have us fade out with some cool freestyle rap. If I could, I would.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. Oh, there’s a rhyme. Let me down a little bit, I’m afraid. I feel a little bit let down right now.
Jason:
Sorry. Can you sing?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No, I can’t sing either. I can play the drums, though.
Jason:
Oh, that would have been awesome.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. Like a bit of a drum riff going on. Phil Collins style. Phil Collins.
Jason:
Oh, man. I really want to do one of these sorts of after hours show where we just carry on talking and just be idiots for like another 30 minutes. It would just be so good.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I could so do that all day long.
Jason:
Yeah, seriously. I try not to do it in the podcast itself, but it usually falls apart by the end, as people can tell. I should probably hit stop recording now, shouldn’t I?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Thanks for your time, buddy.
Jason:
Thanks. Thanks. Appreciate it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And that wraps up today’s show. In next week’s episode, we will be talking a reoccurring revenue with Ed Ellingham from CloudCareWP. It is one not to be missed. Remember, you will get early access to this inside of the Agency Trailblazer community if you are a member. And also don’t forget if you want to communicate or connect with WordPress extraordinaires, designers, agency owners, freelancers, and other amazing people. Then you can also be a part of our wonderful free community over at WPInnovator.com forward slash group. I will see you in the communities. I will see you in the communities.
