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Verbatim text
Lee:
Welcome to the Agency Trailblazer podcast. This is your host, Lee, and on today’s show we are talking with Kim Doyal. It’s been way too long and she is sharing her journey with content and how that has influenced her business, her business choices. Absolutely fascinating. So guys, sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. Welcome to a conversation with an old favourite. Well, she’s not old, she’s actually quite young. Because I just realised I absolutely jumped into a hole there, didn’t I? And I’m now digging my way out. Welcome to a young favourite from episode three, episode 58 and episode 59, the 322 year old herself, it’s Kim Doyal.
Kim:
Hello, Lee, and thank you for catching. Although it’s out there now.
Lee:
It’s out there, isn’t it? I could edit that, couldn’t I? But this is raw. We love our conversations. Last time we had you on the podcast we accidentally talked for two hours and we had to split it out into a part one and part two. Hopefully we can stay on track this time.
Kim:
I don’t know, let’s just let nature take its course.
Lee:
Well, I have just had a coffee.
Kim:
And I’m getting one in.
Lee:
No worries, guys. If you don’t know who Kim Doyal is, she’s basically a legend. We all know that. You should know that she’s part of the WPA Innovator group as well. So go find her in there. And the great stuff that she does, she runs Kim Doyal.com. she was the WP chick. You’ve got your podcast, you’ve got so much going on. So instead of me murdering what you do, perhaps you could give everyone an intro and throw in a fact that you think nobody knows yet.
Kim:
Oh, a fact no one knows. It’s kind of funny because what I do now, I’ve had people say that to me, they’re like, how do you make money? And so now, I mean, it’s. Everything I do is around content. So I’ve done content classes, I’ve got everything is content. I really quietly launched a membership called Creators Nation earlier this fall. It’s kind of a beta, getting the kinks worked out in that. But everything I do literally is content. I’ve still got the podcast I’m trying. Oh, content Creators Facebook group. Hello. That has been this, like, I don’t happy. I wouldn’t say accident, but it’s really been a happy evolution of letting life take its course. So everything I’m doing now is content. All things, you know, everything is content.
Lee:
Everything is.
Kim:
That was a little botched and of course, you know, we’ve got a physical product which we’ll talk about, but just everything I’m doing at this point is content marketing. But I will say this, that it’s been, I want to say a rocky road, but it’s not been a super clear path. I have simply showed up and I’m just kind of taking it one day at a time. It’s. I really, I like having goals and plans, but I don’t do the whole five year plan or whatever, maybe life stuff, but I’ve let this organically do what it’s supposed to do and it’s been the most fun I’ve had, to be honest with you.
Lee:
Well, I think it would be worth just going through that journey together. One of the things I’ve talked about quite a lot on the podcast and with other people is how we go into school and then people say, right, you need to pick your course, you need to pick your career and your path and you need to study for it and stuff like that. But what I found in reality is that school or whatever you do doesn’t really matter because life happens and you end up meandering through decisions and experiences and what you thought you were going to do is absolutely not what you were meant to do on this planet. And you end up doing something completely different. And you’ve had an absolutely fascinating journey. I first met you physically, which, well, not physically, but virtually physically, as we’re having an actual conversation back in episode three, I tentatively sent you an email saying, I really love the WP Chick podcast. Will you be on my podcast? And I was dead scared and nervous and you were like, sure. And then we made best buddies from that second onwards. But I’d also known of you for about a year because I’d listened to your show and enjoyed the content that you’re putting out there.
Lee:
And in fact, the podcast you did with me was called show up was exactly that. Show up and be yourself. We then caught up with you again in episodes 58 and 59, where to catch up with you. You were talking about a product as well, I believe you’re going to launch, and all of that sort of stuff. Fast forward to now. You’ve rebranded, you’ve got a new style of podcast, you’ve got this massive group for content creators. So you’ve definitely gone through that journey from the last episode where we were talking about Lead surveys. Can you kind of catch us up with. With what happened there?
Kim:
Yeah, that, that was definitely an interesting journey. So Lead Surveys was a SaaS product that I was partnering on with a developer and it kind of came the idea for it. We had been working on something else. He was a plugin developer and said, hey, do you have any ideas? My original idea, and if anybody wants to create this, I still think it’s a good idea, was like a single, a nice single checkout page where somebody could sell a product through WordPress. I’m not talking. I know that there’s carts out there for WordPress and WooCommerce and everything, but some people just want to sell one product and it gets a little bit overwhelming. And I was like, look, we need kind of like landing page, but a way to pull in a product through WordPress. Just one digital product, right? Not a tonne of variations or anything. So we kind of started working on that and then I got a little bit, I don’t know, weary of just the support involved with plugins and kudos to anybody who does it and does it well. And so I had come up with this idea cause I’d really started getting into this whole personalised marketing and segmentation and I thought, so if you think of Survey Slam, which is a great plugin for WordPress, I actually use it now, but it’s basically segmenting subscribers at the point of opt in.
Kim:
And so we came, we pivoted to the SaaS lead surveys and that kind of, like I said, it was the end of 2016 that came to fruition, but Leah literally took all of 2017. He was finishing up projects the first quarter and in the meantime I’m like, okay, I’ll start a podcast. It was called Don’t Give a Fox, which I still think is an awesome name. And I have to credit, you know who came up with that was Dave Toomey, because it was something else. But it was awesome. And so I thought, okay, let’s. I was, I was super gung ho and still am on Expert Secrets by Russell Brunson. I’m like, let’s build the tribe. Let’s, let’s start talking about it. Let’s create the content around this and, and really kind of set the platform. And then my partner on the project got really ill over the summer and into the fall, like major life stuff was happening. I was going through a lot with my son and then the goal was, okay, let’s get it launched beginning of 20. And it kind of kept getting pushed and I would say March ish of this year, we kind of opened the door, so to speak.
Kim:
And it did okay. But the problem was that the software, and this isn’t a dig, because he was a champ. And I did a whole episode on why it went sideways and wish him nothing but the best, but it was not what we thought it was going to be. And I don’t know if maybe just circumstances, he bit off more than he could chew. At the same time, I’m not a developer. I couldn’t look at anything and say, there’s no way this was X amount of hours of work or why did this, you know? So, yeah, all of those things aside, I just started getting this feeling that he was. He was done. And I’ll never forget because we just had my parents, huge party, 50th anniversary for my parents in June. And it was like right before that. And I’m like, he’s like taking two or three days to get back to me. And I just said, look, I’ll be all right. I mean, I’ll be disappointed, but do you not want to do this anymore? He said, I think I’m done. I don’t want to do this anymore. And I said, okay. Okay.
Kim:
So, you know, it was. It was disappointing. But the crazy thing, Lee, is that I had launched Content Creators, the Facebook group, a year prior with zero attachments. Originally I thought, you know, I love the community piece and I am going to make a book recommendation that’s nonfiction for you, even though you were just telling me how you fiction is good for you. But it’s Seth Godin’s new book called this is Marketing. I was listening to the audio and I’m like, I have to get this physical book so that I can underline and make quotes and stuff. This was a beautiful line. He said, there’s plenty of content. There’s not enough connexion. And I really feel that that is where so much marketing is going. So, you know, originally with the Facebook group, I thought, I’ll do a membership, which I did a year later. But I wasn’t attached to it because it was kind of just happening. And I didn’t. Every single time I’ve done something without an attachment to the outcome, it does really well because I don’t have pressure and expectations on myself. And I’m not saying that that’s the way to go, but I go into mass resistance when I’m like, you have to do this, this, and this.
Kim:
I mean, I’ve grown up a little bit and figured out a good balance, but, you know, so that was all sort of happening. So in a way, I was kind of relieved, to be honest with you, because I had gotten a little glimpse of the amount of support, and we weren’t in a position to start hiring people. And I had, you know, gotten out of client work. I’m like, I don’t want to be on my computer at night, you know, doing support questions and emailing and stuff. If I’m going to be on my computer at night, I want to be creating something or looking for a book to read on Amazon or something. Do you know what I mean?
Lee:
Amen.
Kim:
So it’s just. So it was. It was a really tough decision. I’d been talking about it for a year and a half, so it felt. Actually, it wasn’t even like egg on my face. I just felt like, well, you know, stuff happens. Own it. I did an entire podcast episode wishing him nothing but the best when I learned from it. And I think the title was Even When Something Is Over Before It Starts. You know, so all of that led to this. And so for that, I’m super grateful.
Lee:
I think it’s very often we struggle, don’t we, to I say failure. It’s not necessarily failure. I don’t really look at things as failure. But sometimes we’ve put all of this time into something, and then we end up flogging it, don’t we? As much as we can, like, just keep on going and keep on going and doing it to death, thinking that we’ve put all this effort in. It would be a terrible waste to just throw it all away and finish. But actually, what you’ve done there is you’ve done something for over a year. It’s not working, but good things have happened as a result of it, and it’s okay to let it go. It’s actually a relief to get it let it go, because this frees you up to invest all of your time in something completely different, which has been awesome. I think what I noticed during the whole process was you became a content machine, as it were. I mean, you’re already a content machine, but you were. You started to. You were putting out all this content you. Like I said you had your group. I love the name of that podcast.
Lee:
That’s so freaking hilarious.
Kim:
Yeah. Dave Toomey. I’m like, if I ever. I don’t know that I could use a fox for anything else, just because there’s kind of. And our fox was super cute, but I just was like, God, don’t give a fox. It’s fun, it’s awesome.
Lee:
But you’ve been able to use that. You’ve been able to use that as that Whole process as content in its own right. You always say everything is content and you’ve been able to create content based on that experience and share the lessons that you’ve learned, but you’ve also been able to let go of it. I think that’s what I’m trying to say is very often we’ll have something, we’ll be doing it for so long and we’ll never necessarily let go of it because we feel that that would be a failure. We feel that we’d waste all the work that we’ve done. How do you feel? Do you feel like that or how have you been able to feel good about it?
Kim:
I think that one, a lot of it is who I am internally, right. That I have done a lot of self work in terms of there’s. I really believe everything happens for a reason and to trust the process and if I’m not enjoying the journey, then there’s zero point in doing it. And so there a lot of it was a tonne of fun. I loved, I liked the idea of the podcast. I liked, I loved our Fox. She was super cute. I loved getting stickers made. I enjoyed creating the content around it. I loved seeing, you know, I would get screenshots of the UI and I was like, oh, this is fun, this is coming together. And it was something. I’ll tell you this, Lee, that because I said, you know, that book Expert Secrets really helped me pivot how I approached my business from there’s a lot of stuff that happens online that people don’t see. Here’s an example. I had a coaching call with a gal yesterday. She hired me just to do like a one off call and she’s got an E commerce business and it’s like oftentimes we get this idea and if you’re capable of getting the site up and doing all these things, that’s great.
Kim:
But taking the time for the stuff that people can’t see, which is the messaging and to sit and write 40 or 50 headlines and to come up with why you’re doing this and what is the purpose of this and what is a problem, you’re solving it really that book helped me look at all this sort of behind the scenes stuff and how I want to show up with whatever it is I’m teaching or selling or doing. Right. And so in so many ways, literally I would say up until the last three months of lead surveys, I was having fun. So it was fine. And I was smart enough to not let go of anything of my own. Right. I mean I had stopped client work. I knew I was pivoting to the personal brand, but I think it helped me move forward with all of the content marketing because I wasn’t attached to what it was supposed to be doing. Right. I didn’t have any expectation other than just show up and have fun. I really believe in that. I think because we’re doing this to earn a living and it’s a business, there’s all this massive pressure.
Kim:
Lee, you’ve been through it, I’ve been through it. Life can be a shit show. And so if you just learn, no matter what, I’m going to get back up. I may be brought to my knees. Whether it’s financial struggles, personal losses, heartache, it doesn’t matter. We will get up and move through it. And sadly, some people don’t. And so when, you know, I do get up again, it’s like, all right, well, what’s the worst that’s going to happen? Do you know what I’m saying? It’s like, okay, and if that can help somebody or inspire somebody, because the more honest I am and the more I show up and share the shit show. I hope you don’t mind me swearing. I don’t drop off, but we’ll just.
Lee:
Put the obligatory E on this episode.
Kim:
Okay? But that’s kind of what it is. And the truth is we all experience it. And I think we’re at this place. I’ve been saying this, and here we go. Kim, off script, but I really feel that the space is maturing, the market has matured, and marketing is starting to look a little bit different. Content is starting to look a little bit different. And so the only differentiating factor we have is our themselves. So if you want to just do a boring listicle post or this or that or be another version of something else, it’s probably not going to do what you want because you’re. You have to be you. You know, this. This gal I was talking to yesterday is in her 60s and she’s got these products for women. One of them is an arousal cream. And I’m like, whoa. Right, right.
Lee:
And double explicit. Now, keep going. Well, well, I’m joking with you.
Kim:
Okay, Sorry. But the whole thing is, it was like I got to the site and it was like, I feel like I’m looking at, you know, an E Commerce template done by somebody you were hired off of Fiverr. I have no idea what the brand is. I have no idea what problems you’re solving. And, like, I don’t connect to this and that. It Solves a very significant problem for women at a certain age. And I thought, right. And she was telling me all of these, like, headlines and sensuality type of things, but it was like that was in her gut to do it, but she listened to other people. And I’m like, that, that’s your hook, that’s your story. And so I think the ability to step back and say, screw it. And so that’s kind of what lead surveys did for me. I mean, I literally did a class. Everything is content. What the hell? Like, there’s plenty, of course, creators. That would be like, that’s the worst name ever. I’m like, I don’t know. It worked. I had fun. I was able to cater the teaching based on my belief in that. And.
Kim:
And I’ve got evidence that it works. So, you know, lead surveys, going sideways, it was just all a magical journey, for lack of a better word.
Lee:
You’re totally right. One of my favourite books on the planet is Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. If you read it. In fact, I may have even read it because of you. I feel like you may have suggested it. But anyway, yeah, yeah, great book. Really easy to read. You can literally sit down and read it in two hours. It’s one of those sorts of books. And she talks about the. The fact that there is pretty much no wrong decision and that you can pretty much do it anyway. Things will happen, you’ll always be able to eat, you’ll always find a way to survive, and any decision you make will lead to lots of. Lots of opportunities to do all sorts of different things anyway. So stop freaking out and if you got this idea, go ahead and do it, try it, see what happens. Essentially, she’s saying, feel the fear, do it anyway. And then go from there. You felt the fear, you did it anyway. You then came to a point where you’re like, right, okay, this isn’t going to work out. That’s fine. But I can still use what I’ve learned and done all this, you know, use all this and still build something else.
Lee:
Which you’ve gone on to do. Content Creators Feels like it’s only been around for a few, like, I know, a year. Is it two years?
Kim:
A little. Almost a year and a half now, I think.
Lee:
Year and a half now and you’ve, you’ve got 3,000 plus members in your Facebook group. You’ve got all sorts going on. Can you tell us about now? What is going on now? So we’ve, we’ve had lead surveys, we’ve had the wp Chick, which has moved into Kim Doyal brand. So everything thinks all around the personal brand. Tell us all about the last year and a half of content creators that I guess has stemmed from all. Well, from your many years of creating content.
Kim:
Yeah, you know, I, I think it’s funny, I think the first thing I sold through content creators because I. This is not anti email marketing. I am a huge email marketing believer still. But I probably sell more through my group than my email list. Partly because, excuse me. Partly because a lot of that was WordPress based. Right. So I’ve, I’ve finally segmented that out and I’m like, okay, this is people that were here for WordPress Check. This is people here for content. But it’s that evolution. So I started doing classes. You know, I did the summit in March, which was insane. At Content Creator Summit you spoke at, you know, but all of that I was then kind of gearing up. I started doing some coaching again. I kind of prefer like the one off session of coaching and not that I wouldn’t do long term, but I just like here, let’s make a plan. Go do the work and then when you’re ready, come back. That kind of works for me. But anyways, I was really looking at. All right, like anybody else, recurring revenue is gold, right? So at first I thought, okay, let’s, let’s get the membership going.
Kim:
Which we did. And that’s going. And I’m super happy I did that. Of course I had this other idea for a content planner, a physical content planner. And I’m just going to do a quick little story here, Lee, with how this even came out is because, you know, I grew up like I thought I was going to be an art major in school and I was for a couple years in college. I grew up just, I would spend hours in my room drawing. Then of course I had a scrapbook store way back wet. So like I’ve always had that creative bent to me. And earlier this year my aunt had said, oh, have you heard of the Bullet Journal? And I hadn’t at this time. Have you heard of the Bullet Journal?
Lee:
I have, but I would love you to tell me in your words what it is.
Kim:
Okay, so the Bullet Journal is one. The pages are not lined, they’re like a dot grid, which I love. It’s a little bit more freedom, right? But he has a whole process for using it. So you literally like number the page, the whole book. You go through, you number the book, create like an index and a key and all this stuff and it’s basically a system for journaling. Well, I started it and I was like, this is way too restrictive for me. Just don’t work that way. And so I thought, I’m going to make this what I want. And I’d also started really getting back into art. Last fall, I started doing watercolours and stuff. And so I’m like, well, I’m going to buy some coloured pens. And so one day I will literally map out a funnel. The next day I’m like, what are my life goals? You know? And then the next day I do a whole spread on the story that I have around money, because I’m working through that or whatever. So I literally just let it run its course. So I started having some fun with this. And the crazy thing is there is this massive subculture in this space with bullet journal.
Kim:
There are hashtags and YouTube people that what they do is like, they’ll. Every month, oh, here’s my December spread. Millions of subscribers. So you don’t want to know how many pens I’ve purchased since I’ve gone down this road. But it blew my mind wide open. I’m like, wow. And I just started thinking, I’m like, every time I go to do something bigger, I’m an outliner, I like to pen and paper, I outline stuff. And I don’t know about you. Have you seen. So, like, it feels like everything old is new again. We’re kind of in that phase, right? And so there is this nostalgia around pen and paper in a way. At the same time, there is scientific evidence that proves we remember things better when we write them down. I know I do, but. So I just. I kind of had this idea for a content planner. Whereas you could map stuff through, work it out, then go schedule it. Because even if you’re using co schedule or buffer, whatever it is you’re using, it’s a place to go in and schedule. But I’m like, there’s no, like, thought process behind it. There’s no how do I conceptualise taking this and then getting it to the calendar, Right?
Kim:
And all you’re doing is adding things to a calendar, but you can’t necessarily see, okay, how many pieces of content do I go have going out on Wednesday? So it’s funny because I thought, all right, this will be a good 2019 project. Kim. Right? This was literally like, Augustly thought, this will be a good 2019 project. Just put it aside, stay focused. And I happen to have a call with somebody and he was an artist and I’m like, so would you want to do this? Because I don’t know. InDesign I can’t. There’s. I couldn’t. It would take me a year to learn it. So I don’t know. InDesign so we start connecting. He’s all on board and in. Some people might think, okay, why are you doing collaborations again? Because it’s just more fun when you’ve got someone to do it with a B. I don’t have the skillset, but like three weeks in and there wasn’t a logo. And I’m like, I got to call this. I’m not doing this again where something gets drug out because. And so I sat there and I thought, wait a minute, oh my God. Jody. A friend of mine is a graphic designer.
Kim:
She’s been doing this 25 years. She happened to be on a cruise, like in Europe. And so I just sent her a message on Facebook. I’m like, so question for you. I’m like, do you know InDesign? She’s like, yeah, what do you need to know? I’m like, well, I don’t need to know anything. But not a two. Two question for you. I’m like, one, Can I hire you to do something? Two, would you like to partner? And she said, yes. I’m like, well, what? She’s like, yes, let’s, let’s do it. And it just, it came to life. This has easily been the fastest creation. I mean, there’s a whole story behind it, but I’ve never seen anything come to fruition so quickly. And I’ve used the quote before. And it’s just that Victor Hugo. Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come. So now that’s what I’m doing. Which all ties into content.
Lee:
Every time you tell me stories, you kind of blow my mind with the amount of, with the amount of directions that it goes. There’s so many, there’s so many interlacing stories. I think we said this in the last podcast in episode 58 and 59. I remember every, every answer you give you, there are at least three or four different layered stories within it that all kind of connect. Which I think kind of goes right back to my point earlier about, you know, you don’t really know what’s going to happen in your future necessarily. And having those big, long five year plans are nice, but sometimes stuff happens and things interlace and things happen accidentally. You never set out in 2018 to start your, you know, creating the planner. And I love how you were able to learn from Last time and go, okay, last time didn’t work out. It took a year and a half to not happen. This time I need to get involved and get this to happen quickly. And like you said, I remember you saying you had the idea a few months ago and then I’ve seen the digital version of your planner and it’s blowing my mind how quickly you guys have been able to do it.
Lee:
I mean from getting started. So you and Jody. All right, let’s partner. What happened next? Because like you said, no logo, no nothing. Then you hit with Jody. What did you do to create it and what have you used to create this content planner? I’m assuming you’ve created some frameworks over the years of creating all the content that you have done. How did you go about building this?
Kim:
So yeah, it has been a wild ride. So one like this has kind of been my life for the last three months. Right. And but one, we did a tonne of research and I had been looking up planners and there is another content planner out there, but it’s very, it’s really more like a calendar where you can add and I shouldn’t say just but where you then go and add stickers, like a Twitter sticker, Facebook’s for that. And I thought that’s like a part time job. I don’t want to do that. And you know, I’ve looked at a lot and for anybody remember like the Franklin Covey and Day runners and I like I used those way back when when I was working corporate and you know, so I’ve always been this pen and paper person. But I started looking, the research piece of it was Fascina. There’s a tonne of life planners, goal planners, right. And I thought all of that is well and good, but I just, I don’t know, I really wanted something for this. So how we went about creating this. So when Jodi said yes, I, you know, brought her up to speed.
Kim:
We had a couple calls and stuff. This is what I like, this is what I’m envisioning for this because I knew like I don’t want spiral binding. I feel like it gets in the way and I wanted it to lay flat. I wanted it to have a feeling of quality as well as this is something I use for my business, you know. So it was really important to me with some of those as well as like I do know. And I’ll give you a little, don’t forget like a little Instagram stories, hashtag example of where this world can take us. And I wanted it not to bleed through. So all of these things. So, okay, so like she started, she jumped in and she got into InDesign based on our conversations and started with the monthly and weekly calendar spreads, right? Because there’s a spread for the monthly and then there’s a spread for weekly. And like I, it was like Christmas morning. Like I, I’m just one of those people, I’ve accepted the faculty that when I get excited about stuff, I’m not gonna hide it. It may fall on its face, but I just, there’s no point in pretending I’m not excited about something.
Kim:
So like I was giddy like little kid Christmas morning. And, and then, so from there, you know, we would talk about it and she sort of had the, the framework within design. So then what I did, which of course I’ll use her content. I literally, I have a pad of paper that is those, that dot grid. I went, I told you I’ve been buying art supplies. So I ruler, pen and paper. I drew all the pages out. I’m like, how would I work through this? How do I work through it? So, you know, because I’ve done the whole just you have an idea and you create a piece of content that’s never going to go away. There’s a tonne of value in that. There’s. There’s a thought process that happens there. I know how I like to write. At the same time, I want what I do to have a more definitive purpose. The stuff that I feel like writing off the cuff, I’m not attached to it. But a podcast or sort of, you know, epic cornerstone content that links to other stuff. How do you think through that? And then even the micro content, we all know that you can repurpose things 10 ways sideways, but what does that look like?
Kim:
You know, so, so I just, I sat and I drew the pages out. I pen and paper ruler. And then even with the statistics page, so we had, I kind of had an idea for things and then I got on a call with Michael Killen and I’m like, what are you tracking? Like, I know he’s, you know, he gets into that stuff with funnels. And so because the book includes campaigns and funnels and stuff. And so I literally pen and paper drew the pages out and then I would take a photo, you know, send it over to her. She would convert it in indesigns and we would walk through it and we literally had a six hour zoom call on a Saturday. She’s like, my ears going to fall off. You know, so it was Just going through it and getting feedback a little bit. And so I’ve given the digital planner to my membership and they’re going through it and already I think we’re going to add a couple spreads based on what they’re saying. And because some people are like, oh, I write bigger, I want more place to map this, or I want to track what I did and didn’t publish.
Kim:
And so it’s, it’s been invaluable. At the same time, there comes a point where you can’t crowdsource everything. You got to get that MVP out there, which is where we’re at right now. Did I answer your question?
Lee:
Well, you did say you were going to tell us that Instagram hashtag story.
Kim:
Okay.
Lee:
As well.
Kim:
All right, so this is really cool. So as I started doing my own version of the bullet journal, right? And I’m following, I literally will watch YouTube videos and on lettering and people drawing their bullet journal spreads. So I thought, all right, I took pictures of my, my bullet journal, that, which is not the structure. And one of them, there’s a spiritual thing that I listened to. And they said, create a book of positive aspects in your life. And so I actually drew like, it looked like an open book within the planner. So I drew the book and then I’m like, love, money, business, like health, like all these things. I started doing positive aspects and I’m like, I’m gonna just post these pictures. So I took pictures of each and my stories get, I don’t know, 50 to 60 views, right? I don’t have a tonne, like a 2,500 followers or something on Instagram, but so I do one, just posting it and I don’t know, I got 50, 60 views. I do another one and I use the hashtag journaling. It got 563 views. And then the next one, I didn’t use the hashtag and it got like 50 something views again.
Kim:
So I was like, oh my God, this is a hungry market. This is like, you know, when people get into something, if they love it, they go all in. And I thought there is something here. And so I feel, I really felt like there’s a piece of this we can tap into. I don’t know what that looks like yet, but I believe that user generated content getting people to use your hashtags and take pictures of how they’re using your product, right? Telling stories about what they’ve done with it and highlighting users, it was just that that blew me away. And it was, I mean, I use hashtags But I can honestly tell you, I don’t think I do it that well. But this was like, what the what? Like, I was floored with it.
Lee:
I love Instagram.
Kim:
Yeah.
Lee:
Although, gotta admit, I love consuming everyone else’s Instagram and I keep forgetting to actually post my own stuff. I sit there for hours going through my stories and voting and doing everything else and then never get any other work done. All right, so let’s recap because you’re totally Californian and going all over the place, which I love about you. But just to confirm, it’s Kim Doyal on the show here. And the structure has been that we’ve gone from WP Chick, we’ve launched or tried to launch lead service, didn’t quite go so well, but learned an awful lot during that process, which is fine. We’ve then gone to the content creators, which is blowing up. It’s wonderful. There is a wonderful group Facebook group. We’ll make sure we put the link in there. And from that, you’ve seen a need and created this planner, which looks freaking awesome and it’s super exciting. So you’ve literally gone from creating a digital product to now creating a physical product. We’ve also learned that you’re still not scared to partner with someone, which is awesome. And actually, when you find that partner who can really help you, things can essentially, it pulls rocket fuel on what you’re doing.
Lee:
So you’ve been able to create something super quickly ready for 2019, which is really exciting. New year, new start, everyone can get behind this sort of thing and start to use it. So we’re now here, you’ve got a Kickstarter campaign. I’ve got two questions for you and let’s see if you’re able to answer them. I’m sure you are in and amongst your stories, which I love about you, Remember, this is not a criticism. Number one, why a physical planner? I know you said that there’s power about pen and paper, but why a physical planner when, let’s face it, there are co schedule and all sorts of other tools out there and appsumo are always doing these random lifetime deals. So why a physical content planner? And then also, what’s the idea of launching through Kickstarter as well? Because I’ll be honest, that’s always something I’ve never really understood because I’ve never really paid much attention. So question one, why a physical planner? And then question two, why then take that physical planner through a Kickstarter?
Kim:
So, okay, so the physical planner one is we’re Both fans of pen and paper. So there was sort of this selfish. I want to do this. And every time I go to do things, even if I outline it, I am a very visual person. I think you are too. So it’s like, like, here’s a great example. When I did like a free lead course, right? Content traffic, Kickstarter, I colour coordinate the spreadsheet in Google sheets to match the modules in the course, right? That’s kind of how my brain works. And so you see all of this where people, again, like this kind of everything that’s old is new again. People are needing. This is where we were talking earlier about the market maturing. And I think, you know, I don’t know what balance looks like. I think it’s going to be, you know, it’s so subjective. It’s to each individual, but people want to stay in the thick of what they’re doing at the same time. You know, Lee, like, my hands bother me not from typing, but from my phone more often than not. And so there is this ability to switch your brain off.
Kim:
And here, you know, like when I was telling you I got into watercolours last fall, it was like I would come up with the most random idea and get inspiration when I’m actually not attached to the computer. So I feel that there is this, you know, this, this actual drive to. Okay. It’s kind of like, why meet in person when you can just do a virtual call? Because there’s, it’s simply different. There is a different level of connexion that happens and there is scientific proof. I think it was Princeton and Harvard that, you know, they said you’re gonna, they were professors or whatever. And it. I’ve got all this, all this on the Kickstarter, but where they were saying you’re, you’re much more likely to remember things when you write them down. It just is, you know, like, even if I go to the grocery store, if I make a list in my notes on my iPhone, I’m walking around listening to a podcast, like, I totally forgot that I have a list. But if I had a pen and paper, I’m like, oh, yeah, it’s. It’s just crazy how it works. But I do think there is something about the hand motor connexion there.
Kim:
And we do remember things more when we write them down. There you go.
Lee:
No worries. Well, let me recap them because you’ve kind of highlighted something that I didn’t think about. And then we’ll go into the second part of the question, which was just basically I asked you Two questions. Didn’t I really ask you one question? So I’m just a terrible host. All right, so for this, I get it, because you’ve. You’ve connected something in my brain that I wasn’t considering about writing stuff down. So if I. As you were talking, I was thinking about all of the biggest things I’ve ever done in my life. Life and in this business agency. Trailblazer Community was launched because I got paper out and I wrote down everything that I was going to do. I moved away from the computer, I wrote it down on pieces of paper. Me and Larissa got super excited about it. I still have all the paper and the site and the structure, and everything looks exactly like I did on the paper. I was also super focused in that point where I was able to very quickly and rapidly visualise it. I didn’t have any interruptions of Facebook, I didn’t have any interruptions of email, and I didn’t have the limitations of using the computer tool that I had.
Lee:
I could literally draw lines and put circles and make things more important and have stars and smiley faces and doodle for a bit. And it was a really messy few pages, but it was everything we needed. And we’re about to launch something and I don’t even know if I’ll have announced it yet, so I’m not going to say what it is. If I have announced it, everyone will know what I’m talking about. But I’m planning something massive for 2019. And again, everything was done in our notebook in that massive planning session. Everything’s been written down because it was completely away from the computer. But I hadn’t connected those dots until you said everything you’ve just said. Then, like, every time I need to do something potent, I walk away from the computer and I do it on paper. And I’d never noticed it. I’ve just took it for granted that I do it and have never noticed that that’s what I do. And I was like, holy crap. Right.
Kim:
Well, and I think the other piece of that, too, is when you’re using something on the computer, you are conscious. There’s a part of your brain, right. That’s. That’s thinking. Okay, I’m mapping something out. You’re. You’re focused on the use of the tool.
Lee:
Exactly.
Kim:
And getting it to cooperate maybe in the way that you wanted to, whether it is or isn’t.
Lee:
And then I go to AppSumo to download another tool to maybe help me do it better.
Kim:
And then I’m like, Kim, who’s like, not a huge. Mind mappers. Like, okay, there’s got to be a mind mapping software. So let me download this free one. And it’s like. And then I end up with. And here’s the thing, of course, because everything is content. When I take pen to paper, I take pictures of that stuff. That’s what I’m working on. And that was what gave me the. That was a catalyst to do that free course I did because I. I did this whole map on. And I literally bought like a big map and I mean, paper, pad of paper, I can’t talk and markers. And I’m like, I’m going to do it in colours and do whatever. Right. So. And then I took a picture of it and posted and someone’s like, oh, my God, that’s going to be awesome. I was like, huh, well, thanks. You know, and not that I don’t post pictures of online tools that I do as well do screenshots, but it’s. It’s simply not the same thing.
Lee:
All right, so we’ve got. So let’s let me recap, because then I waffled as opposed to recapping. But it was good. It was, it was a nice rant, positive rant. So we’re saying. And I get this now and it’s helped, helping me. So hopefully it’ll help other people. When you’re doing something super important, it’s good to be away from the computer and the distractions. It’s good to be using the tool that you use best, which was the hand that you were born with, that we’ve all used for years. And we can create plans on a piece of paper that make way more sense and are way more fluid and we’re away from any distractions. So I am making a point to myself to go and buy myself a nice beautiful notebook for next year for these sorts of ideas that I have and just use that. So there we go, we’ve learned that. And then. So let’s launch in now to why Kickstarter? Because I don’t necessarily understand the platform. I understand that people will start a new business from it. I’m not sure how you’re using it 100% for the book. Is it to be able to get enough money to physically print the book, et cetera.
Lee:
How does all that work?
Kim:
Yeah, I mean, so how Kickstarter works. And you can also use Indiegogo Kickstarter, though if we don’t hit our funding goal, we don’t get any of it.
Lee:
Yeah.
Kim:
So there’s that. Right and so don’t for a minute think that I’m not. I mean, this is, we’re recording this the day after we launched the Kickstarter. And I’m like, I’m like, I think it’s going good, but this is like game on for promotion. Right? Like you tell your, your neighbor’s son’s uncle who you met 12 years ago. But it was, you know, we chose Kickstarter 1 because there is a. What sort market validation in a way. I think that that adds it because there’s plenty of things that you can share online. Oh my gosh, I love it. I want mine. And when are you going to sell it? And then you go to launch the thing and nobody buys it. Right. So there’s a little bit of validation there. And because we wanted to get the momentum going with this is one as well as the whole printing. How the right people showed up at the right time for this project has been fascinating. But even printing, because when you look at something like a planner and we are doing a book binding, like I said, not a spiral binding. So when you look at how you want to do this, you know, we’re actually ship printing overseas and then you’re all of a sudden, I mean, I’ve had a massive education in all of this.
Kim:
But at the same time, you know, worse comes to worse, let’s say we didn’t hit our funding goal. We’re still going to make it happen. You know, people want it. We’ve gotten that proof of concept and you know, so that I’m not terribly worried about that one way there. I’m also trying to detach from it. But the whole purpose of the Kickstarter is you’re essentially, it’s crowdfunding. You’re getting people to pre order. I mean, how many times do people pre sell digital classes? Right. And so that’s Right. And that’s, you know, that’s not for something that requires anything other than time to put out. And so here’s something. There’s a lot of physical costs, hard costs in this. So it’s not so much to make a tonne of money where there are planners that have done hundreds of thousands of dollars. It’s crazy.
Lee:
They have the Freedom Journal.
Kim:
The Freedom Journal or the Passion Planner, which is kind of what fueled me for this. She did almost $600,000.
Lee:
What.
Kim:
It’s fascinating. And so that’s amazing.
Lee:
I think the Freedom Journal hit a million, I’m pretty sure all jump.
Kim:
JLD well, and here. So here’s the crazy Even that. And it’s funny, a friend of mine’s like, I’m sick. I am so sick of seeing rich people launch Kickstarters. Which is. Which is funn, right? And the interesting thing with him is that he did. He bought 5,000. He went and had 5,000 printed. So he did put money out of his pocket initially, you know, and we thought about that too. Like, okay, so let’s say we hit our funding goal, then we can go ahead and place the order for the first thousand to get them printed because of the timeframe. But we’re actually using the same company that John Lee Dumas used to, to do the printing, the outsourcing and even that. This is where.
Lee:
So we know we’re going to get quality then. Because I’ve still got my Freedom Journal.
Kim:
Yeah.
Lee:
Because it looks so nice.
Kim:
Well, and this is, you know, where we talked a little bit. You know, my whole. Everything is content. All of this has come to fruition through content, one way or another. Jodi and I met through content. She listened to the podcast that. The first interview I had done on WP Elevation with Troy, and then she started listening to them podcasts. I think she reached out to me. Then we started doing, oh, let’s do a Skype call. We stayed in touch. You know, it just sort of a relationship was created. The same thing for the printing. Because I’ll tell you, you start looking for, you know, fulfilment centres and printing, it’s a whole world and you could end up with crap. I also didn’t want something to be so high cost that we made. Like, I don’t want, you know, it’s like Amazon, I don’t want to make like 40 cents a book or something. And so at the same time, it’s not about greed either, but it’s, can we keep the cost down enough that we can get this into as many hands as possible? Which means putting money behind marketing and traffic and all of that.
Kim:
And so it’s just been a fascinating journey to figure all of this stuff out. And so we went with Kickstarter because we felt, one validation two, there’s a tonne. I mean, to get a. You know, I’m not going to go into numbers here, but even a thousand books printed overseas is like a small number. He’s like, but I think we can make it work. And I’m like, oh, okay. You know, so it’s thinking, okay, where can we. Maybe that’s why one of the things we did with this was agency bundles. And it was Paul Lacey, who gave me that. He’s like, oh, my God, I’m gonna buy this for clients.
Lee:
Oh, my gosh. I get to use the Paul Lacy jingle.
Kim:
There it is, folks.
Lee:
Another Paul Lacy reference. This podcast is. No, official.
Kim:
I dropped the name.
Lee:
Oh, my gosh. We, like, we’ve had submissions for the Paul Lacy jingle and I’ve not been able to use them yet for, like, two episodes.
Kim:
All right.
Lee:
He gets mentioned so many times, it’s ridiculous.
Kim:
He’s like this sweet kid genius gem.
Lee:
I know. He’s everywhere, isn’t he? Well, now we get to use the jingle, so thank you for being my first guest since I said I was gonna play a jingle the next time someone mentioned Paul Lacey.
Kim:
Boom. But it was really. I hadn’t even thought of that angle when I said that. And he’s like, oh, my gosh, I’d love to buy this for clients. Because one of the things even coming up with the rewards for Kickstarter was. Was fascinating in terms of, you know, like, I had seen another planner that did, like, rubber bracelets and I’m like, I don’t want to send tchotchke shit. Which, sorry, I’m gonna cuss like a sailor. Mind you, we’re including stickers because Kim loves stickers. But it was like, what is value? So we’re doing a masterclass on content creation. And so anybody that gets a planner gets a course. And that’s the other piece of this, is that, like, this is long term. Right. So the same thing, besides the masterclass, there’s going to be a whole free customer area on here’s how to Use the Planner and constant training and updates and all of that. So we’re going to have a private member area for. For customers too. But we simply went with Kickstarter because we felt, you know, it’s. It’s a launch, we can keep the costs down, it’ll help us. And, you know, we’re still kind of sorting the fulfilment piece because at the same time I’m like, I don’t want to screw everybody that lives in Europe or Australia or Canada with shipping.
Kim:
So, I mean, like, we’re doing free shipping in the States, but we had to pull it, even cut some of the shipping, and that was estimating it. So ideally I would knock on wood, but my desk is laminate. We want to have fulfilment centres in Canada and Europe too.
Lee:
Yeah. Because the shipping is disastrous, isn’t it, for the uk? Although I still did it, so I don’t mind. I Want my copy? All right, so just to recap, then we’ve got Kickstarter for the validation because you know, people want it. You’re going to make it happen if you don’t meet your goals because it’s something that people, especially in your community, are definitely after. But there is the wider validation. Will people be willing to pledge money for this equally? Then this is going to give you guys the ability to launch all this, gives you the funding to order that big initial run and also to fund building up the Content Creators Masterclass and all the other exciting things that you’ve got coming up over the next few years, which is cool as well. So absolutely freaking love it, folks. You can Check the show notes. We will have links to the Content Creators Group, which is the Facebook group, which you should be part of, because Kim shows up literally all the time with a wonderful, wonderful content, wonderful value, and the community is lovely in there, just like the WP Innovator group. We’re all lovely people inside of there.
Lee:
And Kim don’t have no time for nasty people. So if you don’t join, but also you don’t listen to this podcast if you’re nasty, so that’s fine. I don’t even need to say that.
Kim:
You’re totally queuing up Janet Jackson in my head now.
Lee:
So, yeah, go Check that out. Go Check out the Kickstarter. If you would like a copy of the physical planner and to support Kim Doyal, then Check that out. You can go to agencytrailblazer.com content creators. That’s agencytrailblazer.com Content Creators. Or you can Check the links in the show notes to support Kim. And also you can Check Kim’s website on KimDoyal.com and if you want more Kim in your ears, there’s two places you can go for that. There’s Kim Doyal.com again, because there is a podcast, there is a back catalogue of over 100 and something episodes of WP Chick. And there’s also the latest, the Kim Doyal show of at least 20 odd episodes. But equally you can go back to episode three where you hear a very nervously interviewing Kim, or you can go to episode 58 where it kind of turned into episode 58 and 59 because we talked so much and you can go and enjoy those episodes as well, or you can just hit rewind and listen to this episode all over again. It’s up to you, because everything is content and the choices are limitless. Kim, you’re a legend, right back Actually.
Kim:
I don’t know that I’ve giggled so much.
Lee:
Good.
Kim:
Thank you.
Lee:
I’m looking forward to seeing the progress. Also, folks, I forgot to mention, if you want a little bit more Kim, then you get Kim live on Tuesday 11th December. I just going to Check my calendar because I need to make sure that was right. Yes, Tuesday the 11th. Is it Tuesday?
Kim:
Yes, Tuesday the 11th.
Lee:
Oh my gosh, no one can forget now It’s Tuesday the 11th. I’ve said it so many times. Tuesday the 11th of December 2018. If you’re listening, Tuesday the 11th of, well, it won’t be Tuesday the 11th, will it? Of 2019. But if you’re listening in the future, just go into the Agency trail. No. Yep. No. No. Wp Innovator Facebook Group and you’ll find the replay in there. See, we all make mistakes. This is raw and uncut. I’m leaving all of that in because that was good Fun. So, Tuesday 11th December, we are doing a live stream at 5pm at GMT. I’ll again make sure in the show notes that you have access to all that and the irrelevant converted times. I think that’s eight. Or is it 9am in Pacific Time? I think approximately.
Kim:
What time is it? Your time?
Lee:
5:00Pm?
Kim:
Yes, yes, that is correct.
Lee:
So there you go. 9:00am, 9:00am specific time, as I’ve heard a lot of people saying Pacific time. And we’re going to do a live stream. You’re going to show us the journal. I was going to call it the Freedom Journal. I’m so sorry. It’s because I’m looking at it. It’s on my bookshelf.
Kim:
I have 10:30am my time, so we better square that away.
Lee:
Just basically look at the show notes, folks. And it’s all in there. Oh my gosh, I am a complete mess, aren’t I? It’s just getting all super excited. But anyway, show notes in that we’re going to do a live stream and she’s going to show you everything, how to use it, what’s in there, all of the exciting good stuff. And I’ll be probably pummelling Kim with questions. And because we’re using the cool new Streamyard as well, you are allowed to pummelled her with questions as well.
Kim:
And Jody, my cohort, will be with us too.
Lee:
We’re going to get great answers from both of them. Oh, so cool. All right. That was a messy ending, wasn’t it? Shall we wrap this podcast up?
Kim:
Yes. Thank you for having me, Lee.
Lee:
Thank you for being on the show. This is a record for us. 50 minute podcast. That’s amazing. That is without going over like. Well, actually we went over by 20 minutes, but that’s amazing. Oh, I didn’t know you two hour show.
Kim:
Is your show regular, 30 minutes.
Lee:
No, it’s not really. It’s like this little imaginary thing I have in my head that I’m gonna try and do a 30 minute show this time and I never, well, rarely do so. But you’re a legend. This now time to say goodbye. Thank you so much. Throw one more swearing before we go. I mean we’ve got that. We’ve already got E on here.
Kim:
So I’m good.
Lee:
Yeah, good. Got it out your system. All right, cool. All right, take care.
Kim:
Bye.
Lee:
And that wraps up today show. Now then, big announcement. If you were not in the Facebook group, which is on agency trailblazer.com forward/group, then you will have missed that we are doing an event in the uk. Oh my gosh. I am pretty scared about this, but it’s really exciting. On the 25th and 26th April of 2019, we are getting together in Wellingborough, England. That is just 45 minutes north of London and we, we are getting incredible speakers from all around the planet. Wow, that sounds pretty incredible. Quite a lot from England actually. But anyway, some incredible speakers and we are going to be talking about the five stages of agency transformation and helping you make each one of those steps wherever you are at. So be sure to Check out. Agency transformation Live. That’s agencytransformation.live. We don’t see you there. If we don’t see you in the group, then we’ll see you in the next episode.
