Note: This transcript was auto generated then some poor soul sat and listened to it, and followed through correcting any mistakes they spotted. Please however expect human error and shout if you spot an issue. Email: lee [fancy curly symbol] trailblazer.fm.
Verbatim text
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Hi and welcome to the WP Innovator podcast, the WordPress podcast for design and web agencies. Let’s make WordPress work for your business. Hi, this is Lee at the WP Innovator Podcast. Today we have Barry o’, Kane, who is going to be unpacking for us retainers. Now, that doesn’t sound very sexy, but if you think about it, this is the opportunity to generate ongoing revenue with your clients and also to generate ongoing conversations, keeping in touch, keeping connected with your client base. And you can always find new opportunities when you’re in regular communication. So this is going to be a fascinating episode. Great insight and Barry is full of amazing advice, information, etc.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So really recommend you take the time to sit back, relax and listen. Now, before we crack on, I’d love to just extend that invite again to come and join us on the Facebook [email protected] group. That’s leejacksondev.com group, where you’ll find other people who listen to the show, your peers, etcetera, all talking about WordPress and sharing awesome advice, asking questions and adding value. So see you over there on leejacksondev.com group, on the private Facebook group and on with the show.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Have I got a treat for you. I’ve got two amazingly accented guys, one being myself and the other being Barry O’ Kane from happyporch.com. hiya, mate. How you doing, Hayley?
Barry O’Kane:
Good, thanks. Thanks for having me.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Cool. You’re the second person to call me Hayley. That’s a girl’s name. The name is Lee and we have Barry here. Get in with you, mate. Barry, whereabouts are you from?
Barry O’Kane:
I’m from Northern Ireland, although Edinburgh in Scotland is home.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Edinburgh and Scotland is that you can kind of detect kind of a broad accent mix. It’s like an amazing cocktail of accents.
Barry O’Kane:
Yeah, it’s very messed up.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Messed up. Well, Barry is from Happy Pooch. And Barry, instead of me murdering what you do, why don’t you just explain to people a little bit about obviously who you are, what you’re about and what Happy Porch is about as well.
Barry O’Kane:
Sure. So I started web development way back in the mid-90s, way back in the dawn of time. And then in about 2002, started my first agency in Edinburgh. And then, similar to yourself, Lee, about a year ago, a little bit more than that now, I moved on from the agency. They still exist, I’m still involved, but not day to day, and started happyporch.com, which is focused on helping, particularly helping web Design agencies with development services, but focused on not doing more than just coding and you’re sitting just following instructions and writing code or implementing cms. More about trying to help the whole agency turn the development thing, which can often be a pain, into a real profit center and a success, if that makes sense. Wow.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So turning development into what was pain but into success. I like the idea of that. And when you say that, I presume that would involve kind of getting involved as part of the team, offering consultancy and advice from the things you’ve learned over the many years since the dawn of time that you started with the Internet.
Barry O’Kane:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Helping through the whole sort of process and team side of things in terms of strategy, but also involved in how you deal with technical challenges. Right the way from proposals and pitches through to ongoing maintenance and the long term strategy after that to keep clients.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Wow. So that’s essentially kind of an end to end strategy for design agencies. Is there a particular sweet spot, a design agency who may be new into digital, who needs almost like hand holding through a process or just maybe an agency that’s just got too much work on that, can’t cope with managing things well or has no specific processes?
Barry O’Kane:
Yeah, I think where I’ve had the sort of biggest success or the most fun for me, I guess is from my point of view is agencies who are really strong, for example, in design or maybe in marketing and development as part of the mix, but not as, you know, if you’re like running any successful business, you really want to focus on the thing that you’re good at. And that’s where the real profit is, the real success and the real fun is in terms of running a business or running an agency. So if you have a team to grow and the technical development side of things is, it’s okay, but it just needs to be, you know, maybe there’s a bottleneck or a challenge or deficiencies. That’s where I. That’s a process. That’s a conversation that I really enjoy. And then I think as well, a lot of design agencies do the ongoing support and maintenance and retainer agreements to keep clients. I think there’s a lot of ways that that can be streamlined and proved to be more successful than I’ve seen in my experience.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s fantastic. And I can’t wait to unpack retainers in more detail later on. So Barry approached me a couple of weeks ago just to say that he has an awful lot of experience over the last few years in setting up successful retainers and that’s One of the things as an agency that a lot of us do show struggle to do, it’s apply some sort of retainer package for support services and so on. You know, how to package that, how to sell that in, because sometimes clients may not necessarily see the value, etc. So we’re definitely going to be unpacking that in a short time. But, Barry, I do have a few questions for you. One of them has just sprung to mind. What prompted the move away from agency life into Happy Porch?
Barry O’Kane:
Well, there’s two reasons for that. One is very personal. It’s a lifestyle thing. I like to travel a lot and I sort of set up the new business to be location independent. So the team is distributed across the UK and Europe and we don’t have a specific office. I work right now, for example, I’m in California on a porch. On a porch.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
How cool is that? It’s a happy boat. I was cheesy. Carry on.
Barry O’Kane:
So that’s one reason. And the second reason is just, I guess, as I mentioned before, the kind of things that I enjoy doing, looking at development teams and processes, working out how to make those things efficient and multiple different ways that that work is what was basically fun for me.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. And not fun for me, which is perfect. It’s perfect that we should meet because I think we’ll definitely be having conversations offline as well, as well as online. So you’re quite a new business. You’ve been around for a month or two. So the question that we do like to people ask people, sorry, who have, you know, many years of experience in business like yourself, is what has been the biggest challenge to your business? Now, if you’re two months old, I’m not sure if you’ve had one yet. So maybe you could draw from experiences in one of the businesses that you’ve run over the last few years. Unless there’s definitely something in Happy Porch that you’ve said, yeah, I can nail that as a big challenge that we have or are overcoming.
Barry O’Kane:
Well, I have a theory that I’ve stolen from the Tropical MBA podcast recently that summarizes my answer to this question quite well. I see it as sort of three different stages. In a very early stage of a business, your real big challenge is positioning. So defining exactly what you do and who you do it for and being able to explain that and articulate it sensibly in a way that adds value. And that’s where I am with HappyPorts right now, is trying to. I’ve got that, I think, and I’m Trying to be able to articulate it clearly. And then as you go beyond that, your next problem is marketing, Getting the clients and selling. And then the third stage, once you’ve sort of got those two things, not that those two problems ever quite go away, but then beyond that, when you’re starting to grow a team, your challenges are process and team and like efficiency and scaling and so on.
Barry O’Kane:
And, and that last sort of challenge as well as the one I’m trying to help with, Happy Porch is where I spent a lot of time with my previous business. So I guess that’s three answers to your question.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Three answers, three for one. That’s really cool. And I think there was someone who told me once about the. Have you heard of the phrase norming, storming, performing when you get a team together, et cetera. I love it when people put together kind of a little packaged, easy to remember, kind of bulleted list of the journey of something. And this for a journey of a startup, the articulating the marketing and then the process. I’m definitely for myself at that process stage. We’re a two year old company.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
We were able really to define our message and to stand out quite well as to what we do. Predominantly code for design agencies. The marketing kind of then grew from word of mouth into online, social media, etc. We’re now at the stage where we have a lot of really great work and we’ve got quite a few people involved in the back office development team kind of around the world like yourself. And managing those is definitely a challenge for me at the moment. And it sounds like something that Happy Porch will be good to help with
Barry O’Kane:
and some of the fun parts there in terms of running a team, like there are a lot of similarities, but there’s also a lot of distinct differences between a team that’s 100% in one office and a team that’s maybe split or a team that’s completely distributed. Yeah, it’s fun. I could go into all of that for hours.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
One of those being time zones because I literally work with people all around the world. Australia, for example, are complete opposite. So my morning is there evening. But yeah, there is also that kind of missing factor of being in a room sometimes with somebody and pointing at stuff and just generally, you know, sometimes I do miss that kind of aspect of teamwork, not being in a physical room. But hey, technology is amazing. You can have video conferences, etc. And it all works.
Barry O’Kane:
Yeah, and there’s benefits both way, as you say, downsides like that both ways and benefits Both ways. So I also, just as a slight tangent on that, I also think there’s a lot of similarities between those communication challenges you’re describing within the team and how you communicate with clients as well, because you’re rarely sitting next to your client very often. And so being able to virtually communicate, to communicate not in real time or in person. So documentation and phone calls and so on I think is an important skill as well.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
The more you talk, the more I’m just thinking selfishly of my own business, but then saying that everything I’m thinking of and the questions I’m asking you, I’m pretty sure other agencies will be kind of at that point asking themselves right now. That’s really exciting. So I guess then over the last couple of months, is there anything in particular that’s really helped you get from kind of inception of Happy Porch to yes, I know what my message is and I’m now going to go out there and market. Was there any kind of idea that came up from that?
Barry O’Kane:
Well, I started from my personal point of view. I sort of started with the idea. But what has really helped me sort of narrow that down and clarify it is the content from Philip Morgan, who’s a, I guess a strategy consultant in the US he provides positioning, I think his term is like he provides positioning advice for technical firms or something along those lines. He writes really clearly on and does webinars and things that really help you think about how you articulate what you do. And this I think is one of the challenges, I think for a lot of people, a lot of web design agencies large and small, where they are sort of saying I do everything, Web is quite a big, quite a big thing. So being able to narrow that down to multiple or one specific message or service or whatever, even if that’s not the only thing that you do. So yeah, Philip Morgan, I think it’s philipmorgan consulting.com yeah, I’ve got it here.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Philipmorgan consulting.com and I’m just looking at, here at the positioning manual for technical firms, which appears to be a download which is available on there as well. That’s really exciting and just being able to find focus what you do. It definitely took me a good probably three to six months when I first started Lee Jackson Dev. To really understand, you know, exactly, you know, what I, what I was doing and who I was working with. Had rough idea. I wanted to work with design agencies, etc. But I didn’t necessarily have that kind of key, you know, exactly what services am I going to offer them, how am I going to work with them, etc. And it’s something that has evolved over time.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I really wish I’d kind of of set out right from the very beginning with that clear picture rather than taking on a few projects that perhaps I shouldn’t and if people listen to. A couple of episodes ago I was talking about a couple of projects I took on at really low cost, which really were not my target market. But hey, learn an awful lot from it as well.
Barry O’Kane:
Yeah, yeah. And that iteration process is actually part of, I think, like any learning process, whether it’s how you position yourself or how you, you know, how you do, how you win bigger projects, how you grow a team. You got to kind of accept the fact that every learning process involves some ups and downs.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Absolutely. It’s a shame though. We can’t learn from other people’s mistakes. I get advice sometimes and I’m like, yeah, yeah, I know what I’m doing. And then it all goes wrong. I’m like, ah, crap, I should have listened. It’s that chip on my shoulder. That’s why I’m unemployable.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I have to learn for myself. So now you said you’ve worked with WordPress over many, many years. We’ll say 10 years because WordPress has only been out for about 10 or 11 years. Is there any particular plugin that you found has just been a complete or game changer for you guys?
Barry O’Kane:
There’s a plugin that I use or have used quite a lot that I think fits with this concept of working with like the support retainers or keeping you sort of top of mind with your clients. And that’s white label CMS and video user manuals which are sort of connected. White label CMS just is a simple way to brand like to give you branding of the login page and the dashboard a little bit. And video user manual just goes in your dashboard and helps give some tutorials for how to use basic editing advice, I guess for WordPress.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And that’s definitely great as well. Video user manuals. That’s Troy Dean who was on the podcast a few episodes ago. Very helpful as well to minimize on support calls. How do I do X, Y and Z? You’ve got access to all of that in the video user manual section and I believe they update that really regularly as well, which is great. So there’s a new version of WordPress now I am glad you mentioned retainers because this is what you approached me on. And one thing I’m definitely intrigued as the as you worked in agencies, what sort of retainers were you offering to clients?
Barry O’Kane:
So I have a bit of an opinion on this and I think a lot of make what I see as a small error in providing a generic support retainer. So we say we pay whatever, monthly quarter, whatever, and we will do support for you. And this sort of vague definition. And I think the challenges with that are twofold. One, setting or managing expectations, your client expectations. You might get sucked into questions about, oh, will you do this or will I need to charge extra or you did that last time and is it different this time? Those types of discussions I think are just inefficient basically for both you and the client. And then the second problem is because it’s difficult to schedule those stuff, those sort of smaller bits, bits and pieces tasks, they have the risk of impacting your ongoing projects. So if you have a team and they’re working busily on some wonderful project and then you get a bunch of support requests or something urgent in terms of downtime or something, then the risk is that effect hits your scheduling and it’s hard to has a negative impact on that.
Barry O’Kane:
And then that obviously all hits your bottom line and everybody’s stressed and you may be stretching too thin and so on. My sort of, what I think works better is to break out the support you do into more distinct specific services. So for example, as a very small example, you might say, well, here’s your WordPress logins and everything and training and everything that’s involved in that. And then offer a service that says if you find to your client, if the client finds themselves overly busy, maybe they struggle technically or something, just give them an email. Essentially we will update content or uplift images on your behalf and separate that out from, we will fix bugs and we will do hosting and we will do design changes and so on. And by separating them out, you’re kind of creating a little mini menu of things that can be really clearly granularly defined. You can manage expectations of exactly what you’re doing and you can deliver those in different ways. So they have a slightly different or hopefully less of an impact on your core service.
Barry O’Kane:
I should say that as well that a lot of I’m making the assumption when I’m describing that that as, as a design agency, your core service is the project of the redesign or the marketing project or the build of the website, and that these sort of support retainers are extra value adds that you’re looking to add on one, to make a little bit of money, but two I think more significantly to keep in touch with the client, to keep in regular contact with the client so that you’re maybe increasing your chance of referrals from them. And obviously when they next have a project that you’re the first person they think of or the first team they think of.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So you’ve got the generic, hey, we’ll offer you support at X per month. But that is potentially the client would be calling up saying, hey, how do I change the font? Which isn’t really a support ticket. And it’s time intensive to respond to those when, you know, there’s already training documentation available. So you’re saying kind of break it down into, you know, package one. We will do your WordPress updates on the first of every month. That is that package. And there’ll be an alternative package which could be two hours worth of content updates per month. Would that be something you’d be talking about?
Barry O’Kane:
Yeah, that’s two good examples. With the caveat with hours thing. I have a. And sometimes it’s the best way to go to say X number of hours. We will do this task for you on a recurring basis. If it’s possible, though it’s nice to avoid saying hours and I mean, it’s probably fairly obvious. But you avoid questions of hey, that took an hour last time, why is it taking two this time? And you’re having to go in to explain that it’s technically different even though it looks the same on the website or something. That’s not always possible, depending on the service you’re providing or the way that it needs to operate.
Barry O’Kane:
But the extreme examples of this kind of thing are the companies that provide like WP Curve, that provide productized service. It’s really clearly defined and they say it’s unlimited or they market it as unlimited. What they’re doing there is basically removing the overhead of the nitpicking conversations that you risk having. When you’re saying tracking everything by hours.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I see what you mean. So they’re saying small jobs. I think they say unlimited small jobs. And it’s one small job per 24 hour submission. I think it is.
Barry O’Kane:
Exactly, exactly. And that’s often why we use hours, because we need to set some sort of boundary. We can’t expect the client to completely overwhelm us. But there are other ways of setting the boundaries around the value that you can deliver. And what you just described with WPK Curve is a good example of how you might do that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I guess in my head though, is trying to define what is a small job because sometimes a client might come to you with maybe something they need adding to their website. And in all reality it sounds perfectly simple and easy to do, but for whatever reason, maybe you’ve got a plugin that’s conflicting, I don’t know, an old JavaScript library, something, some totally unforeseen issue that changes that half an hour job into an entire morning. And emailing people saying, have you any ideas on this? I do wonder how they manage that, because I’m sure there must be some point where they say, right, okay, we’ve now spent way too long on this.
Barry O’Kane:
Well, with WP Curve, I think that’s just a matter of scale. Dan and the team are pretty good at saying no when the client doesn’t suit. So that’s an important point to realize as well. But I think what you just described is exactly the problem. Imagine that happened and you thought, I’ll just do this quick task today and then get back to the project, which done for Friday or whatever, and then you or your whole team spends a whole bunch of hours and now the bigger project is under pressure. The real challenge, and nothing’s ever perfect, but the real challenge of providing these kind of retainer services or support services is to try and set them up in a way that the risk of that happening is at least limited or reduced. And I think one of the ways to do that is to be really clear on what on the service that you’re delivering. So with the example that you said described there, where you upload a plugin and then it breaks everything else and you spend the morning trying to fix it, it’s not always possible, but it may be that if you can clearly set that expectation up front, you actually explicitly say, well, we will update the plugins every month or quarter or whatever.
Barry O’Kane:
If there are problems, then we will roll back and then open a negotiation with you about a mini project or something.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah, thankfully we do actually say that already on our existing update contracts. So we do have update contracts. But what I’ve done is I’ve removed the AB people to have, say, unlimited hours or a package of hours. We just don’t offer that because I can’t work out a way of putting that out to people to say, hey, yeah, we’ll, we’ll update your website for you. But if X, Y and Z happens, you know, there’s that whole contentious area. So essentially I’ve never bothered therefore offering that as a value add. I’ve just recommended people go over to WP Curve for those sorts of things. Although at the same time, I would love to actually create some sort of package, you know, as a digital agency myself, you know, for my own clients to be able to resell that package to their clients as a value add as well.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It sounds like you’re going to be the guy that can help people like me to word those packages and to protect ourselves, to put out some really good, attractive retainer options out there where we can, like you said, keep in touch with the client continuously as well as generating revenue, but also protect ourselves. So, guys, if your ears are picking up, this is the man to talk to. Barry is just dropping knowledge bombs left, right and center and I’m kind of getting excited.
Barry O’Kane:
Yeah, like I say, it’s a fun conversation. I’m glad you mentioned just that sort of passing somebody on to some. Well, WCurve is a great example, but there are equivalents for other services because I think that’s one of the things that you genuinely need to consider when you’re doing. When you’re looking at your, as you say, value add services, if it is taking too much away from the core thing, you need to not do it or find a different way of delivering it. For example, just saying, I’m sorry, we don’t do that. Let me introduce you to this wonderful service, WP Curve or another, which works quite well with things like hosting is white labeling or reselling where you can package it up and add a small markup, but the work is actually done by somebody else.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’ve yet to find a reseller host though that would actually take on the support direct with a client white labeled as well. Unless you’ve got any recommendations because most of them will just do a reseller package. But I have to still take the support ticket and then pass the message on. So I become the middle guy. I never quite understood the attractiveness of that.
Barry O’Kane:
No. And with hosting I actually run away screaming from that particular one.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But we tend to as well. So we’ll recommend a host to a client and then get there. Sorry, yeah, and then get the client to then develop the relationship with the host direct. At the moment at least I didn’t know if you had anyone recommendations. So if you’re listening and you’ve got a host recommendation, that’d be great. Both me and Barry, I think would be super interested because that would be nice just to know that that’s managed and for the client to have billing in one area because it can be a bit of a frustration. And I’ve got a client right now who took on you know, they’ve taken on the hosting. They had actually selected their own hosting partner who unfortunately has been a complete nightmare for them.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But then obviously then impacts on myself because we’re moving sites for them and kind of moving from host to host and also advising as well on. And this is all kind of free stuff, we’re advising on what they need to say in response to their hosting provider, etc. So yeah, that’s a definite pain point that I’ll put out there and share with everyone. And if anyone is listening and you’ve got some thoughts on that, be great either to get you on the podcast or just to hear your thoughts on how you deal with that because that’s definitely a pain point that we have. Not all the time, but it can certainly be quite a big contention area, you know, in the relationship with the client and obviously kind of time intensive. So dude, are you an avid reader? Do you like to kind of consume content?
Speaker D:
So yes, I do read a lot. I read a lot of fiction as well. But I also read a lot to her through phases of reading a lot about particularly when I’m faced with a particular challenge. Like at the moment I’m reading a lot of things about positioning and marketing. As I mentioned Philip Morgan but also Brennan Dunn does some good content on that. So yes, I think I do read
Lee Matthew Jackson:
a lot in phases and just on fiction because do love a good book. Any recommendations?
Speaker D:
So I’m obsessed with science fiction.
Barry O’Kane:
Me too.
Speaker D:
And I don’t know if I have any specific recommendations because I read almost anything and everything’s like space opera.
Barry O’Kane:
So yeah, anything and everything cool ranging
Speaker D:
from Asimov to something I found on Kindle recently a free book which is kind of fun.
Barry O’Kane:
I don’t remember who I have found
Lee Matthew Jackson:
recently ever since watching the Walking Dead series that I’ve kind of got into apocalyptic stuff as well. Which is. I don’t know how that reflects on me but it’s kind of like sci fi but you know, but with horror mixed in there and everything like that. So currently working my way through it’s called well I’ve just read the Passage and now I’m on to the 12. It’s like a series of kind of post apocalyptic where a science experiment went wrong but also love kind of anything to do with space as well. In fact I’ve noticed quite a lot of people who are in the development space or in the agency space seem to like sci fi. We all seem to have this common bond.
Speaker D:
Well, I think it makes sense that
Barry O’Kane:
technology
Speaker D:
I was quite impressed with the Martian recently.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yes, brilliant book. I read that. I mentioned that a couple of episodes ago as well. It’s a fantastic book and the movie’s only just come out, so I’ll be grabbing that movie. Although when you’ve read the book, I guess the movie can never quite do the book justice.
Speaker D:
Yeah, it doesn’t.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh no. Well, I’ll watch it. I’ll watch it anyway, just because, hey, it was a great book, but I imagine they’ve missed a whole load of stuff out, so that’s awesome. So what I’ll do then is I’ll put those in the show notes you mentioned. You mentioned Philip Morgan, who was the other chap you mentioned as well. And I’ll get that in the show notes as well.
Speaker D:
Brennan Dunn.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Brennan Dunn.
Barry O’Kane:
That was it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I knew I recognize that name, Brennan Dunn. So I’ll pop them too in the show notes as well for people to go and check out. And I’m particularly interested in Philip Morgan. So what we like to do with the podcast is people like to kind of understand where people are in their business, what sort of things they’re offering. You’ve given us some really fantastic insight into retainers, which I’m really excited about. What would be great though is if you have any small word of advice, pearl of wisdom, something that people could start to action today that you think would start to make a difference in their business.
Speaker D:
Well, continuing on the theme of looking at support retainers or value add retainers, I think the first thing, one of the biggest impact things to do is to look at, if you haven’t already, look at your team and sort of mentally and physically separate the core services you do and these value add services and then try and particularly if you’re seeing scheduling challenges with those value added services or even cost profit challenges with them, to consciously separate them out and then to look at those support services and see if you can get rid of some, break them down into more defined, more clearly easier to manage their client expectations. I think the process of looking at that could potentially have a big impact on your on efficiency and particularly with team efficiency.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s great advice. So if you’ve got existing support contracts for trainers, starting to review them, review your team, who’s doing what, etc.
Barry O’Kane:
Etc.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
To see whether you can make those efficiency changes. So at that point I’m going to guess that people are going to want to connect with you. What are the best ways of connecting with you?
Speaker D:
So the site is happyporch.com and the easiest way is just to drop me an email which is barryppyporch.com so happyporch.com
Lee Matthew Jackson:
and barryppyporch.com mate, it’s been absolutely fantastic. We unfortunately have to keep these episodes to about 30, 40 minutes tops because we’ve made a promise that it’s a commute only. But you’ve, you’ve filled, you’ve filled my brain with tons of ideas and I’m certainly going to take your advice and take a look at the, well, two things. Check out Philip Morgan. Never heard of him. I’m already intrigued. And obviously then look at the existing support contracts I’ve got. And I think I did the right thing as well from what you’ve said in kind of putting certain things out to third parties like WP Curve.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But again, I’ll be looking at that to see whether or not there is any potential for me to bring some of that back in house. So really, really appreciate your time. And again, if you’re listening to this, Barry is super approachable. He’s a great guy and really excited to see his business grow over the next few months and see what, you know, see the sort of work that he’s doing. So if you’ve got an agency and you’re looking for someone to help you out with strategy, with retainers, with managing your team, etc. Managing growth processes, etc. That then do feel free to get in touch with Barry. I’m sure he’ll be very friendly.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It’s barryappyporch.com Mate, thank you so much for your time and enjoy the rest of your afternoon. Is it over there?
Speaker D:
Thanks Lee. Yeah, it’s morning here still.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, morning. Enjoy the rest of the morning on your porch in California.
Speaker D:
Thanks, mate.
Barry O’Kane:
It’s been fun.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Take care.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And that wraps up episode eight. Thank you so much for listening to the WP Innovator podcast. We really appreciate all the emails that are coming through and especially thank you for sharing it on social media. It means a lot. It’s great to get our message out there to more and more people in the design and the development industry. Now, if you like the WP Innovator podcast, you’ll remember Lawrence Howlett from the early other week. He runs the More Demand podcast. That’s more demand.co.uk I had the honor last week of being guest host of the More Demand podcast and did a full episode on generating a revenue that’s generating money with your WordPress website.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So go ahead, check out that episode with little old me on more demand.co.uk. and before we go, just that reminder, come and connect with us all over at the Facebook group. That’s a private Facebook group for the WP Innovator podcast at leejacksondev.com forward slash group. Hey, guys, remember to keep innovating.
