Note: This transcript was auto generated then some poor soul sat and listened to it, and followed through correcting any mistakes they spotted. Please however expect human error and shout if you spot an issue. Email: lee [fancy curly symbol] trailblazer.fm.
Verbatim text
Lee:
Welcome to the WP Innovator Podcast, the podcast for web designers and design agencies, exploring the world of WordPress and online business. And now your host, Lee Jackson.
Lee:
Hi, and welcome to episode number 86 of the WP Innovator Podcast. This is your host, Lee. And on today’s show, we have Sarah Moore, or as she’s more often known, the Sarah Moore. I’ve no idea what the the is for, but it sounds pretty cool, quite impressive. And she is a social media guru, social media expert. She’s one of my best mates. She’s great to hang around with. She’s really good to listen to. And she’s full of amazing advice. In today’s show, she’s going to be talking about how you can share your story and what that looks like on social media. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride. And please, please, guy at the back, keep your arms and legs in the vehicle at all times.
Lee:
Welcome to the conversation. And the conversation today is with me, Lee Jackson, you probably knew that. And one of my favorite people in the whole wide world, Sarah Moore. How you doing, buddy?
Sarah:
Hello.
Lee:
Good. Good. Yay. I’m here.
Sarah:
That’s awesome.
Lee:
Woo!
Sarah:
Yes.
Lee:
I’m excited. I sound really sarcastic. I feel like as an Australian, sometimes I sound sarcastic, but I’m not. I’m just like, we’re a bit relaxed. And so I like, I’m trying to be a little bit more upbeat and excitable, but I think I just sound sarcastic.
Lee:
No, I think you sounded sarcastic to yourself, which maybe means you were being sarcastic.
Sarah:
I wasn’t, I promise. I’m messing with you. I’m excited to be here. I love being on the WP Innovator podcast. You literally sounded like you read that. I like being on the WP Innovator podcast. It’s my favorite show.
Lee:
No, I didn’t. I really do. This is what? My fourth time? Third time.
Sarah:
Third, fourth. Something like that. We’re going to promote you to co-host if you keep coming on.
Lee:
Well, as long as I’m still beating Clay in the download stakes, I’m happy. Was it Clay I was up against for ages?
Sarah:
I think you were up against like, you were up against the big guys like Tim Page and Troy. And Troy. And Troy. Well, he’s been on again since, so he’s catching you up. That was a really, that was a really good episode. That was. Didn’t he, didn’t he talk about depression and stuff? I listened to that one. It was awesome. It was so good. Yeah. It’s been great.
Lee:
That took a massive, like, I wasn’t even expecting to have that conversation. So that’s what I kind of like.
Sarah:
I mean, back when we launched the podcast, I mean, when you first came on the show, I think your earliest episode was episode eight. I just kind of, I had all these set questions in mind. And I think even before your episode, I don’t necessarily know if I asked my stock questions, but I’m pretty sure I just prepared so much and it always felt a little bit stiff and stale. Whereas kind of the last half, so the last year, I guess, just kind of gone off into this, what we’re doing now, which is a bit of a plan. There’s a subject that we’re going to talk about, but really this is just, it’s a conversation. That’s kind of why I started off saying, welcome to the conversation. Cause we’re just having a conversation. Cause I find it more interesting doing this, but I find it more interesting listening to a conversation as well. If you listen to a podcast like this, this is warning in advance, everyone. We are so going to be interrupting each other, the entire podcast. It’s all we do.
Lee:
Carry on over to you. I am the worst for it with you. I like you and I so sanguine. If you don’t know what that word means, it just means we’re very, very talkative. And so when you and I get together, it’s just like, I want to talk now. I’m going to talk over the top of you, but I do know.
Sarah:
I love how you said that because, and this wasn’t even a planned segue people, but you know, it is a little bit odd. Now all I can hear is innuendo when I talk, but it is a little bit stiff when you start because when you start, carry on. I just, it’s like 3.30 in the afternoon. I’m drinking coffee, not alcohol. I promise. So anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that when you start anything, it is a little bit that way because you’re trying to get it right and trying to get it perfect. And then after you’ve done it so many times, you realize that the value is not in the perfection of something. The value is in the content and the entertainment factor. And like, I look back to, I was just saying to a new client that I got today, actually, I said to her, if you look back to my first videos that I ever put out, I was, I spoke slowly and clearly, and I was, I was just trying to be articulate and all these things. And now when I get on there, I’m like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, because that’s just who I am. And I’m not trying to be perfect anymore.
Lee:
No one can understand what you’re saying when you do that. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You really should just start saying, I’m joking. That was a typical dad joke. Anyway, carry on.
Sarah:
No, that’s just like, I’m just saying like, when you start anything new, and it’s perfect for this podcast, because I don’t know where everyone’s at in their stage of content creation, whether or not they’re adding videos in, if they’re doing tutorials, like whatever they’re doing for their audience, especially if you’re at the start, like my whole mantra is just create, just do it. Because it’s really only in doing it over and over and over again, that you start to develop not only your own voice, but your own pace and your own rhythm and your own style and your own, your own cadence, I guess. And that’s where like, there’s beauty and there’s value in that, because you stop focusing on yourself and all of the detail around that creates like a perfect scenario. And you start to concentrate on giving value. And that’s really at the end of the day, no one cares about all that crap that you care about. They just care about how you’re helping them. And that’s the honest to goodness truth. But I couldn’t believe that myself until I had done things over and over and over and over and over again.
Lee:
Everything you’re saying is true. This is episode number 86. And we’re recording this when I think episode number 81 is live, you know, and with that many episodes behind my belt, if you listened to my first episodes, I am so stiff. It’s beyond belief. I’m trying to be perfect. I’m trying to be everything that I think I have to be. And then over time, it has evolved. And it’s gone to being it’s not that I’m blasé and that I just put out crap, because obviously, people know this, you know, we edit, we heavily edit these podcasts, we make sure that it’s there’s a good conversation flow, the audio is as good as we can get it, depending on the mic of the, the guest, etc. We mix it, we try and do some decent notes and that’s we still we’re still putting in the effort, but just kind of moving away from trying to be a perfectionist and trying to go down the aisle of, you know, creating, doing it naturally how I’m used to doing it. So you said you were doing this whole speaking slowly and trying to be articulate. Well, that’s not you, is it? That’s kind of that’s you trying to be something you’re not, which means although there’s still value in the content, it’s still not you and people don’t connect with you, do they? Whereas now these sorts of shows are way more popular and we get way more feedback when it’s just a conversation. Guys, you know what, we haven’t really introduced you, have we? I mean, I’ve just assumed everyone knows who Sarah Moore is. If you’re in the WP Innovator Facebook group over on wpinnovator.com forward slash group, you’ll know who Sarah Moore is. She’s recently blonde. I wish I could do that. I am. I guess I’m recently beard. So we’ve got like these two amazing changes in our lives. That’s quite exciting. Anyway, Sarah, Sarah and me have known each other for years, literally years now, two, three, three years, I don’t know, a long time.
Sarah:
Yes.
Lee:
But he’s across the ocean. Yeah. You are my you are my first client. That’s how long it’s been. You are my first client. I was gonna get there. Oh, I’m sorry. I just told you that I know you edit that out and you can. No, no, no, let’s leave that in. Oh, natural. Yes. As I was about to say, Sarah’s first client in social media, which is what we’re going to be talking about today. We’re going to be covering social media and the sort of content you should be creating for social media. But Sarah is a social media legend. She’s also a public speaker. She travels the globe quite literally been in the UK twice. So we got to meet up recently, didn’t we? Because she is in popular demand, speaking at conferences all around the world, which is freaking awesome. Well, gel, well impressed. And obviously in the land of ours, but also worldwide manages clients, social media campaigns and strategy, etc. So that was my introduction, Sarah, now that we’re eight minutes in. Did you just want to give people a little bit of a background about what you do and also things like your favorite color, whereabouts you live, not like your address and your pin code or anything like that? It’s a bit too personal, but just, you know, just a little bit of a snapshot of the life of Sarah for the new people that actually don’t know who the heck you are.
Sarah:
Yeah, right. Well, that was a lovely introduction, by the way. I’m one thing that I am terrible at is writing my own bios for things and talking myself up. I remember the first time I ever guest posted for someone, I literally, literally spiraled out of control and cried because I wrote this beautiful blog post for them. And then they were like, can you write the bio for yourself? And I was like, I can’t, I can’t say nice things about myself. It’s really hard just, just between you and I. Anyway, so that was beside the point. So I am Sarah Moore. I am from Australia, Brisbane more specifically. And I, so I’m known for social media, but I’ve sort of pivoted a little bit in the last six months or so. And I focus more on brand storytelling with video these days. So I still do social media for clients and that kind of thing. But what I love doing and where I think my talents lie is to help people tell their story better. And that sounds really lame. And people want to hear, I help businesses convert 367 sales with a $25 Facebook campaign. People want to hear that. And that’s all awesome. And I have nothing against that. No, it sounds boring to me, to be honest. But anyway, that’s me.
Lee:
Well, it really, you know what, you know what I found? It really depends where you are in the phase of your business.
Sarah:
Oh, okay. Well, I’m not very successful then.
Lee:
No, no, no, no. I like the story one. That’s more attractive to me than the figures. I’m like, what? But that’s because you’re in a different stage. So for a startup, having someone, paying someone to get those conversions and those figures is really attractive because you’re trying to be lean. You’re trying to literally kickstart a business, making sure it’s viable, all of that thing. So I like to work with businesses that have already proven that they’re a successful business model. So they know who they’re about. They understand what they do well. They probably have systems and processes in place, that kind of thing. And I like to help them find the creative side of their business and tell their story. And the reason that that’s important is because if you strip every business back to its bare bones, there’s really no difference. So let me give you an example. So this is no longer an introduction, people. We’re getting into the meat of it. We’ve moved in.
Sarah:
We’ve moved right in because I don’t know how to talk about myself very well.
Lee:
I know. It’s how you did that. There’s been about two sentences about you and then you’re giving amazing advice. Keep going.
Sarah:
Oh, boy.
Lee:
So deep dive.
Sarah:
I frequent a coffee shop near me called, well, I’m not going to say who it is, but I frequent a coffee shop and I adore them. And actually, no, I will name them because I’m not saying anything bad at all. In fact, they’re a perfect example. So then their name is Boulevard and you’ll see me oftentimes in my Instagram stories like weekly, if not daily at times, tag them because I like to work from there. And they do fine coffee and fine food. That’s their tagline. And like their food is phenomenal. And their coffee is incredible. I have literally, so I drive my kids to school in the morning. And then when I come home, sometimes I go through as we have a franchisee called Zarafans and I go through their drive through and get a coffee. And it’s so bad. It’s so bad because especially if I get a triple shop, because by the time they put the third shot through, it’s so hot that they’re burning the coffee and it tastes terrible. Anyway, so I do that. But then I, you know, I go to go to my folks at Boulevard all the time. And, and I remember one day I’d been going to Zarafans for ages and I just went, screw this. I’m going to Boulevard. I’m so sick of bad coffee. And for everyone out there, I’m, I don’t know if I’m a coffee snob. I like really good coffee, but I’ll drink really bad coffee too, just because I need coffee. So I feel like I’m a coffee whore, not a coffee snob. Like I just, just get me coffee. You know what I mean?
Lee:
Get me coffee.
Sarah:
So anyway, coffee.
Lee:
Like my message to you this morning when I was like so tired. I had to, I had to go and have coffee. I had to go and get McDonald’s coffee. I had to lower myself.
Sarah:
What else did you get, Lee?
Lee:
What? No, I accidentally slipped and fell and bought sausage, egg, McMuffin. Oh, it was so good.
Sarah:
You heard it here first, folks. So I went to Boulevard this particular day and I remember I got it. I took a sip and I’d been having Zarafas for so long that I had forgotten what good coffee was like. And I took a sip. Same, it’s actually cheaper to go to my folks at Boulevard too. So I took a sip and I literally pulled out my phone and rang my husband and said, I just had the best coffee ever. Mind you, I’ve been to Boulevard a number of times. So it’s not like it was new to me. It’s just that I had had bad coffee for so long. And I forgot what good coffee was like. Anyway, I literally pulled out my phone and rang him. Anyway, that was like six months ago. Fast forward to today. So I was talking with the guy that owns it a little while ago and he’s got a really great Instagram feed and, you know, make quite fine coffee and fine food. Anyway, he sat down and he was just telling me about how they source their coffee and the difference between their coffee and McDonald’s coffee and this other place’s coffee and so and so. So what I loved about it is I just sat there enthralled by his story. It was so fascinating. And I just looked at him and I was like, dude, you need to tell this story. You need to talk about the beans. You need to talk about, they make these fancy coffees. I can’t even remember what they’re called, but like they literally, oh, that’s right. They’re called a pour over. They like pour the water in over the coffee and they time it. And then exactly like however many seconds in, they do it again. Perfect amount of water. It’s all weighed. It’s all timed. And I’m like, I don’t, one, I don’t even know what that is. Two, I don’t know why you do it that way. And three, like I consider myself like a little bit of a coffee snob. So I would like to understand it better so I can drink it. But the whole point of this very long winded story, I apologize everybody, is that they have stories that need to be told that go beyond that typical, here’s a fancy plate of food. Here’s a fancy looking coffee. Because the reality is that everyone’s telling the same story and you strip it back and they’re just another coffee store. But you start telling those stories about these beans that they source that are really expensive, by the way, and I’m paying less for their coffee or the same as going to McDonald’s. And I’m getting a really quality bean, a really good flavor. They’re making it really, really well because they’re highly trained. Whereas a lot of franchises, they’re just pushing them through. And so they’re not trained to make coffee well. The whole point of this is they have a bigger story to tell. And I’ll tell you from this day forward, like from the day he told me to now, I don’t know if I bought coffee anywhere else. Apart from when you’re abroad, because you have bought coffee in England. I saw you.
Lee:
Well, he told me that story when I came back.
Sarah:
Okay, I’ll let you off. And so I think I bought coffee in two other places and one of them I wasn’t driving, the other one I was meeting someone somewhere. So my point is, is you start to tell these stories and storytelling is what brings people in. And it’s so funny because it’s, it’s actually really difficult for a lot of us to go, well, what story do I tell? What’s interesting? Like, what do people care about? And, you know, I, I’m assuming a lot of your listeners have obviously WordPress businesses and things like that. And we’ve talked a little bit about content creation before, but we have to get our creative heads in the game and start thinking about how, what story do people want to hear for starters? But then how can I tell that in a creative way? And that was my really long-winded introduction to say that that’s what I help people do because that is what draws people in. That is what makes people come back to you. That starts to build that trust and that loyalty. And I mean, so to other things, this isn’t the only thing I’m not sitting here saying brand storytelling is everything, but it’s key to your audience, audience, understanding you and beginning to love you, beginning to see you as an authority and beginning to know who you are and what your heartbeat is, I guess. And I see it similar to the way we watch trailers for movies. And a lot of the time, a trailer is the buy-in to the movie. We look at the trailer and go, yeah, I really don’t want to see that one. You know what I mean?
Lee:
Sometimes the trailers are better than the movie.
Sarah:
Yes, I know, right? And so the moral of that story is make sure if people are buying into a kick-ass trailer that you’re giving them amazing content and that you’re giving them incredible value because they’ll keep coming back for the rest of the movies. Come on, Hollywood. Just saying. Just saying. On storytelling, though. All right. So people know I’m a churchgoer. And the one thing that I tend not to look forward to is the 30-minute preach. The sermon. Yeah, the sermon. When the guy stands up and you know you’re going to have to listen to him for 30 minutes and he’ll start to, or she, because we’ve got both, and you know they’re going to start reading verses from the Bible. And I got to admit, even though I’m a Christian, I do find the Bible sometimes a little bit boring because sometimes I don’t really understand what they’re talking about because sometimes it’s not stories. Sometimes it’s like theology and stuff like that. And I’m just like, oh my gosh. But the minute the preacher or the talker, whoever’s there, just kind of then anecdotally tells you a story about something that happened to them a year ago or last week about them or their funny story about their kid, etc. I’m instantly re-engaged. So I may have kind of been staring at the lights behind them, trying to count how many they are and kind of just keeping myself occupied whilst I wait for the torture to finish. Not that bad, obviously, but sometimes I just feel like I’ve got terrible attention deficit disorder, I think. But the minute they start to tell a story, I’m engaged. I’m laughing. I’m looking at my wife and nodding and like empathizing and all that sort of stuff. There is real power, isn’t there, in stories and it grabs people’s attention. I love it. Absolutely. Don’t know where that came from. Felt I’d share that.
Sarah:
No, no, no. I completely agree. It’s like that whole theory versus experience thing. And I think it’s powerful when you can kind of employ both of those things in whatever you’re doing, be it a sermon or be it a tutorial or be it just something even super simple. But on that, and I know that you’re talking about church specifically in your 30 minute sermon, you know, I was talking to this client today and we started talking about how, because they’re in finance. So, you know, it’s not a particularly sexy industry. And so we started talking about how they could story tell, you know, getting finance, like what story are we trying to tell? How do we sex that up a little bit? And how do we tell it in a way? Because we started talking about it and I kind of got to the point and I just said, you know, this doesn’t have to be an eight minute video. Like how do we tell this story in 90 seconds? Like that’s what you want to do. And if you create short form content like that, over time, you create a lot of it. You start to see what resonates, then you can create longer form content around that short form because maybe people want to know more. Maybe it’s actually really, really interesting. And maybe there is more to it that you haven’t shared because you’re just putting little bits out here and there to sort of test the waters, so to speak. And I just wanted to touch on that because when you said that thing about, you know, being 30 minutes, I think a lot of the time when people do tutorials and things like that, they think they have to be really long. Well, actually, I think the trick is telling the story as quickly as possible. Not quickly like you’re rushing it, but not having all that fluff and all that, you know, whenever I’m trying to learn something new for Photoshop or Premiere or something like that, and I go to YouTube, if it’s like 23 minutes long, I’m like, finally the shortest one, please. Because a lot of the time they’re just banging on about crap that you just like, you know, they could have shaved 13 minutes off that tutorial.
Lee:
I get you. If they’d edited correctly and not babbled like I am, you could probably shave about 13 minutes off this podcast episode too.
Sarah:
So we’re actually only three minutes in theory. Yeah. But I think that from this particular conversation, and you’re telling me stories as well, which is cool, but from this conversation, I am gleaning and I’ve learned to understand from you over a period of time that social media is important for a business. And people think, and I still make this mistake quite often, people think they just need to share stuff, share other people’s stuff, maybe lots of links, just share lots of stuff on social media. And yet I think what we can safely say is, although all of that sort of stuff is, it’s nice to share other people’s stuff. There’s all this, this, all this good kind of goodwill that you can create on social media by sharing valuable content, et cetera. But if you can actually use social media to tell your story as a business, that’s going to be far more powerful. And I think the landscape of social media is changing to facilitate that, isn’t it? You know, you’ve got Facebook. I agree. You know, the Facebook stories, Snapchat stories, Instagram stories, you know, everything’s all becoming about stories, you know, short snippets of content and previews into people’s lives. People are really focused now on sharing what’s going on in their day to day, or even sharing anecdotal pieces of information or anecdotal stories as they’re going. And I’m finding myself, even though I was poo-pooing all of this just, I don’t know, six months ago, every single morning now I’m going through everyone’s freaking stories. I don’t even look at Instagram anymore. I look at Instagram stories because that’s more interesting. Can I touch on that? I really want to touch on that. Let’s go on a tangent for a second.
Lee:
So this isn’t a tangent. This is the point of this entire podcast. So go for it.
Sarah:
Okay. Well, I want to talk about that because that’s huge. So I love Instagram is my favorite platform right now. And I’m not even a particularly, I am a visual business, obviously, because I’m creative. But when I think about Instagram, like businesses on there, I think about that particularly lend themselves to Instagram. I think about any kind of modeling or bodies, like because they do all their thing on there, any kind of food, any kind of product based business, that kind of thing. I think services are a little bit different. Anyone can be on there. But, you know, I bang on a lot about people having a really beautifully, like a really aesthetically pleasing feed. Because the first thing I do, if I see someone who’s put an interesting comment, or I think, oh, I want to follow that, someone shares, they say, oh, I follow this account, have a look, I will go to the feed and look through the feed. And if the feed is cohesive and beautiful or consistent in some way, I’m more inclined to hit follow than if it’s just like, you know, random, bad photos, a million different things in the feed, that kind of thing. I prefer, you know, color cohesion or a pattern or, you know, every third thing is a quote. Now, not everyone’s like that. But I do think that the more aesthetically pleasing the feed, the easier it is for someone to go, yeah, I’m going to follow them. But in saying that, I have been asking people lately, because I’ve noticed the behavior in myself, I have been asking them, do you scroll through your feed anymore? Or do you just watch stories? And I promise you, every single person has said, yep, I find myself, I just put on the first story and I let them run through and I watch them all. And I, I’m not surprised for starters, because it’s video, it’s how people are consuming. But the reason I twig to it is not because of my own behavior, but because I started to see people who are super smart, putting shots of their feed in it and blocking out their latest photo with an emoji and saying like, latest picture up in the feed on my Instagram stories. So you click on them and then they put their handle, you click on them and you go and look at the photo and then you engage with it that way, because people aren’t scrolling through anymore. So they have to now use their stories to remind you to go and look at their actual feed. Because the majority of the interaction you’re getting on your photos now are bots, which is frustrating. And I think that Instagram is very much a platform where you hit a tipping point and you get more humans than bots. I don’t know what the ratio is. It’s just something that I’m noticing. Or if you’ve, if you’ve done a really good job at building it organically without hashtags, hashtags sort of aware, you start running into trouble, even though I completely advocate for hashtags. My point is, is that we need to be thinking about one, the stories that we tell, but two, using, using these platforms to get our brand out there and get awareness on us.
Sarah:
And if your platform is predominantly YouTube because you do tutorials or something like that, you need to be using Instagram stories to point people back to that or to point people back to wherever they need to go that you are communicating with them. And the sad thing is, is that a lot of people aren’t using social media to communicate with their audience. They’re on there because they’re checking a box, but they don’t have any strategy in place and they don’t really know why they’re using something. And I find this a lot with services. So with service-based industries, because they’re not selling a product specifically, if that makes sense, like a physical product. So they don’t know how to use it well. Like they’re on there, their presence on there, but everything is advertising or everything is like, Hey, look at this. This is something I’m doing now that has to do with my boring job. Like there’s very little creativity and they don’t really have strategy behind it. They don’t really know why they’re doing it. They’re just doing it because they know that people might look them up on Facebook.
Lee:
We are proud to announce that we have an exhibition stand at Dead Boring Exhibition 2018. See you there. 100%. You can buy tickets here.
Sarah:
Exactly. Exactly right. And so that’s why I put this poll into the group because the reality is, and a lot of people won’t admit to it, but I reckon if I audited everyone’s social media, there’d be very few people doing it well. And I, even I, as a social media person, struggle with consistency because I do a lot of the work in my business.
Lee:
Yeah.
Sarah:
And so that for me is the first thing that falls by the wayside. But I think that there are people that have time that just don’t, don’t really know what to do. And so maybe we could talk about that a little bit because like, I would love to see people understand a little bit more, have them understand a little bit more how to use Facebook or Instagram or YouTube or that kind of thing. And push people back into, you know, the channels that they want to connect with them.
Lee:
Well, so far, I mean, we’ve talked about you as the facilitator, as it were, or helper, whatever the right word is, of helping people tell their story. And we’ve covered why it’s important. And we’ve also talked about some of the mediums for storytelling. So do tell your story. And that’s probably going to be this episode title, I think. Tell your story. Sounds pretty good.
Sarah:
Yeah.
Lee:
So I guess before we go into kind of other parts of social media, I think it’s safe to say social media is a way to communicate with people all around the world and tell your story, engage, generate leads and all that.
Sarah:
Can you just give us some practical advice about how to get our stories out of ourselves so that we can share our story? Because right now, like, what’s my story? And maybe help me for a minute. I don’t know what my story is. I went and got coffee and bought a burger this morning before. Like, is that a story? Or should I be telling some other story? I don’t know. I’m asking you.
Sarah:
Are you talking about so? So when we talk about stories, there’s like your overall brand story. What story do you want Angle Crown to tell? Like, if they were going to be a movie, what’s their story? And your story is that? Well, what is your story? You explain. Tell me what you do and who you do it for.
Lee:
Okay. I build WordPress themes from designs for design agencies. Okay. Pretty much it. Not changed in four years. Okay. And why do you start working with design agencies?
Lee:
Because, well, to solve a lot of their problems when they’re working. The design agencies we tend to inherit are that we’ve inherited them from freelance relationships they’ve had where the freelancer has not had the skills or has disappeared off the project or has run late or has gone over budget. They’re kind of the four core problems that people have experienced. And we put ourselves forward as that solution to all four of those common problems.
Sarah:
So right there, just in that, you could tell those four stories separately. You’d tell them all in one, but they’re actually stories that you can tell because they’re problems that you solve. And so essentially there’s a beginning, a middle and end. There’s a start. Something happens. Someone started a project. In the middle of that, there’s frustration because someone bailed or went over budget or did whatever they did. And then the end is you basically came in and rescued that.
Sarah:
Now, if we were working together, we’d sit down and we’d make sure aligned with the feeling that your brand wanted to give and all that kind of stuff. So a lot of people are, I say a lot of people, some people are a bit more raw and edgy. Others are catering to a more corporate crowd. Others are catering to this or that.
Sarah:
And so you obviously tailor it to have the feel that you want it to feel. But just from a storyline perspective, there’s many different stories you can tell. And they’re big overarching stories for you because basically what they’re doing is if somebody comes to you, they’re saying, this is what we do. And you’re telling them in a creative way.
Sarah:
So obviously, from my perspective, I would love you to tell that story with video, you know, like a beautifully created video that tells someone the problems that you solve or gives insight into the types of brands you want to work with.
Sarah:
And so, for example, just like a visual cue, for example, if I want to work with startups and okay, the difference between me wanting to work with startups and me wanting to work with commercial or corporate businesses, you might be able to tell that immediately because I dress a certain way in the video. Does that make sense? Like I’m probably not going to wear jeans and T-shirt if I want to go and meet with really high caliber people.
Lee:
Yeah. Right? That sounds like a terrible thing to say.
Sarah:
It does, doesn’t it? I am so shocked you just said that.
Sarah:
Not to say that startups aren’t high caliber people, but more just people that they’re living in different worlds. You know, startups are a bit more rough, raw, edgy. They’re a little bit more like, I’m going to start generalizing here a bit, but I dare say they’re probably a little bit more on the millennial side. And so they have less care about dressing in a suit and stuff like that.
Sarah:
And so the only reason I’m bringing that up is to kind of make the point that visually your storytelling can tell a story without being a story in and of itself. Does that make sense?
Lee:
So I think what you’re saying is there’s lots of stories. So not only is there the story of me solving problems, there is also though the story of my brand. And that could be the quality of the content that I output, what I wear, the location I’m filming in, the quality of the images and the stock photography I may have used on those images that I’ve shared.
Lee:
And I’ve also ensured that I’m using the correctly branded font over the top of that. There is this consistency in my story. And by using those very things, they tell a story in their own right.
Lee:
So hopefully the story I’m telling to design agencies, for example, is that I care about quality. I understand brand consistency. I get design, which means I understand their world. So I never even thought until you said what you’ve just said.
Lee:
I did not realize that I have actually been telling that story without realizing it. I had not connected that I have even by not saying once upon a time, I’m actually still telling a story through all the other actions.
Lee:
Even with this podcast, you know, I’m telling a story of consistency of quality, you know, and it’s building up a story of Lee Jackson to, you know, it’s building up my credibility within the industry.
Lee:
People know who I am. People are more happy to work with me because they’ve got 80 odd episodes to listen to of me chuntering along to people all around the world.
Lee:
Again, even that’s building up a story. Flipping X, Sarah, you’re a genius. Just saying.
Sarah:
Yeah. Oh, look, you did the work, mate.
Lee:
It’s all right. I’m your translator, basically. You say loads of stuff and then I do the tweet version.
Sarah:
We’re a good double act.
Lee:
Oh, man. You know who is good at doing that? Mike Doyle. So if you ever need an animation and you have a lot to say and you don’t know how to say it quickly, go to Mike Doyle. He’s so good at condensing someone’s story into something bite-sized. He’s really good at that. Just saying. Anyway.
Sarah:
Drive it in.
Lee:
Yeah.
Sarah:
Drive80.com. And also he’s doing this new thing called Animation Monthly, which is freaking cool. And you can learn all about that on episode 84 because we interview it.
Sarah:
But warning, it is an explicit episode. So please do not listen to episode 84 with children in the car or in the house.
Lee:
Classic Mike.
Sarah:
Mike drops just some shockers.
Lee:
The F-bomb.
Sarah:
It’s kind of a story he tells at one point that really creeped me out.
Lee:
Rightio. Classic Mike.
Sarah:
I’m worried about meeting him now. I’m joking. No, it was really funny. We had a good time.
Lee:
He’s awesome. Yeah. But, you know, I have a vlog coming out next week, I think.
Lee:
And it’s all about brand. It’s all about, like, why? Why do we care about brand, basically?
Lee:
And I do touch on the fact that a lot of people think brand is just a logo.
Lee:
Yeah.
Lee:
But basically, it’s customer experience. It’s every touch point. It’s how you answer emails. It’s how you present yourself. It’s how early or late you are. It’s everything.
Lee:
And so, not to get too ambiguous with all of this, but, you know, if I was to sit down with you and we start talking about you and your brand, you know, I would sit there and ask you a bunch of questions about you, why you do what you do, what you do.
Lee:
I would get a feel and an understanding about your business holistically and then just sit there and ideate.
Lee:
I love doing that, just sit down and write ideas because there’s so many different stories that we can tell.
Lee:
And some are really big and overview-ish and some are smaller and particular and they almost answer a little question or they tell like a mini story that you might not have thought about.
Lee:
But we were kind of talking about Instagram stories and that kind of thing before, I think, as well, because you asked me what story do I tell.
Lee:
And so, we went – we just spoke about brand because I wanted to talk about that overarching type of thing.
Lee:
But when we use Instagram stories, Facebook stories, Snapchat, all that kind of thing, we are telling little stories each day and that’s going to be different for everybody.
Lee:
It’s probably not something I can fully answer just here on this podcast.
Lee:
I mean, is it okay though for me like on sharing Instagram stories? I mean, like I’m not very good at doing it. I’ll send you quite regularly silly little videos of me.
Lee:
You will.
Lee:
Eating a burger, drinking coffee with my daughter, whatever, anything, you know.
Lee:
Yeah.
Lee:
If I just kind of posted to my story at the same time, I assume there’s still value in sharing my life. As well as an ongoing story so that people can – because you do that really well. I mean, you do a combination of your life and tips and random – lots of coffee pictures actually. I’ve noticed that about you.
Lee:
Yeah.
Lee:
But, you know, there’s pictures of you being reunited with Poppy the other day. That was beautiful because obviously she went on a little mini holiday and it was so sweet to see you two reunited and the chocolates.
Lee:
But, you know, that all builds up a story. I feel like I know what’s going on in your life without you even having to tell me. Obviously, that’s more on a friendship level. But equally, other people who are following you are watching that story and it’s building up this picture over time of you, your wonderful family, your love of coffee, your real solid work ethic because you always seem to be doing something work-related, you know.
Lee:
And all of that, all of those little 10-second snippets or whatever it is for Instagram are actually building up this huge narrative over time in my brain about what’s going on in your life. Without you trying to squeeze everything into those 10 seconds, you’re just giving these little snapshots. That’s my take, I think, on Instagram stories.
Sarah:
I think that’s a really great take on it and I want to add to that and say that I love what you said about, you know, over time it’s building this narrative because that’s what you want. You know, a lot of people when they go into social media and these things, they think they’re going to put out a video and tomorrow they’re going to get 10 new clients. And the reality of the situation is even if you’re very consistent with email, very consistent with posting on social media, very consistent, consistent, consistent, there is very few people who will get the content at the time you send it out or put it out and consume it right on the spot.
Sarah:
And there are people who will wait for your content. Don’t get me wrong because we all have people that we love and, you know, there’s probably people who love having your podcast come out every week because they commute to work and they look forward to it. They know it comes out on this day and so Wednesday is their day of listening to the podcast or wherever it is.
Sarah:
But the point that I’m trying to make is that oftentimes the reality is not that people are consistent with us even. The reality is that we build up a content backlog and they go down a rabbit hole with us and fall in love with us. Then they follow us everywhere. Are you trying to say I love you, Sarah?
Sarah:
Not quite, not quite. But talking about people that you do love and that I love too is Amy Schmidauer. So I learned about her maybe like, you know, a year or two ago. And I, to be fair, I don’t consume a lot of content anymore. But I do remember at the time when I was getting into video and that kind of thing, I started watching her stuff. And now I’ve never subscribed to her YouTube channel. I’ve only subscribed to like Gary Vaynerchuk. I’m really bad like that because I don’t spend my time in YouTube. It’s not a preferred channel. So with her, I remember finding her and I literally sat there for like a couple of days and just consumed as much as I could.
Sarah:
Yeah.
Sarah:
Because that’s just the way people operate. And that’s what we have to understand. So all that to say, we build up content over time so that people – because there will be people, Lee, who find you and they will go down the rabbit hole of listening to every podcast you’ve ever put out. And that has happened.
Lee:
We’ve had people say, hey, I’m halfway through all of your past episodes. And I’m like, what? Yes.
Sarah:
Yes, right? Because it’s of value and because they’ve found you. Now, they’ll come out the other end and they will love you. They’ll feel like they know you. They know your voice. They know your face. All of those things. And then they go and follow you on Facebook or Instagram, for example, and you’re using the stories. And now they are seeing you. They’re seeing your everyday life. And we will talk about that in a second. But the point is it’s building up that collective narrative over time. And, yes, they may have missed all of the other Instagram stories you’ve been doing for the last seven months. But they found you elsewhere, for example. Now they’re invested in you in a more personal way because they’re seeing you almost in real time on your Instagram stories. And it just adds to that cliche saying that I hate but I’m going to use it, the no, like, and trust factor.
Sarah:
And so even if it’s – and this is the whole thing about brand awareness and authority. You can tell I’m getting passionate about it. But what it is is that even if it’s not your ideal client, you’re the person that has given them so much value over time. They feel like they know you. They feel like they could have a beer with you. Always welcome.
Sarah:
And so when someone says, you know, I want X, Y, Z done, they go, oh, chat to Lee. Even if you’re not the perfect person, you know, they probably hear the word WordPress and they think of you, right? So even if you’re not the person that gets the work, you could probably make a connection and then you become a value to even more people.
Sarah:
And this is like what’s so important about social media and connecting people and just being available and not – you know, this is what I hate about funnels and conversions and stuff like that. They are not bad things. I don’t hate them in and of themselves. But when we get so stuck on systemizing our business because we want passive income and we want to take ourself out of our business, we actually lose – we stop being of value.
Sarah:
Because we miss those serendipitous moments where we can connect people and where we become the person on other people’s lips because we’re putting out – we’re not putting out recycled content. We’re putting out content that we’re making fresh because we’re staying abreast of what’s going on in our industry. And I think that becoming that person of value in your community is actually what pushes you to the top, let’s just say.
Sarah:
Because when you’re the one contributing all the time, people trust you. They see you as an authority. And when they think, oh, who knows about WordPress? Lee.
Sarah:
Why? Because he’s done over 80 freaking podcasts on the thing. He’s put up a ton of blog posts. He’s got a group where he’s got, you know, nearly 800 people in there that he’s providing value to. It’s an active group. Everybody’s helpful. Anyone can ask a question. Do you know what I mean? Like it’s a collective narrative. And while I don’t prescribe to everyone being everywhere, we do have to start thinking, where can I be and how can I contribute to that platform to give value?
Sarah:
And you know what? The start is the hardest because it’s really hard to feel like you’re getting any traction. All the people that comment, reply and see it are all your friends to begin with. And it’s really not until you’ve been consistent for a long time that you see the value of that. Now, I’m happy to be proven wrong. I was proven wrong when I started in my business. I think I put out, you know, eight videos before I had to stop because I was too busy. But all I’m trying to say is that brand takes time. But it is so it’s it’s actually not that hard to become the name on everybody’s lips. You just have to invest in yourself and in your brand on one or two channels really heavily and make a good go of it.
Lee:
I think I can reiterate that a lot. I mean, one of my social media channels is, I guess, the podcast. I guess you could kind of consider podcasting as a form of social media or at least I share it on social media. But it’s something that I do consistently. You know, my first few episodes had hardly any listeners. I think we had like 10 downloads initially of the very first episode. We get thousands of downloads now in less than two years. So I don’t even think we’re too in November will be our two year birthday. And we get thousands we’ve had over over the two years. We’ve had hundreds and thousands of downloads. Like you said, we’ve we’ve grown a community of nearly 800 people already. It’s growing about 100 people a month at the moment, which is quite incredible.
Sarah:
Wow.
Lee:
And and all because I’m just consistently putting out this podcast and obviously, you know, being consistent in the group. So, you know, showing up every day and consistently sharing content on social media as well. But I had to start somewhere and I was putting it off for so long, wasn’t I? You remember.
Lee:
I mean, it was you that made me freaking well start because I kept saying to you, yeah, I’m going to start the podcast soon. And you’re likely you just need to tell everyone you’re going to launch it, put it out on social media and give them a date so that you’re being held accountable to it and go live. And I’m so glad you did that because then I got live with this podcast. And two years later, I would not have dreamt of of where we are at the moment with with the listenership that we have, of the amazing guests that we get on the podcast as well, you know.
Lee:
Yes.
Lee:
And the people it’s connected me with as well, you know, relationships are built up that I would never have dreamed of. So there is something although it’s it’s daunting. And for the first year for me, I was often thinking, really sure why I’m doing this. But I had to keep reminding myself of the bigger picture that, like you said, obviously, it’s telling a story and people are beginning to know, like and trust me.
Lee:
But the reward for that, especially for this last year, been incredible, you know, with new opportunities, new relationships, new contacts, all of that sort of thing.
Lee:
So just by doing it, showing up, be consistent.
Lee:
From my experience, it totally works.
Lee:
I didn’t have the benefit.
Lee:
I mean, for you, I think you did post out a few videos, didn’t you? And then you got shared loads of business. And that’s that’s the ideal, isn’t it? But, you know, for me, it’s been a much longer burn. But either way, just by doing it, you are doing something that the competition isn’t doing and the competition doesn’t see the value in, which means you can be way ahead of the curve.
Sarah:
Yeah.
Lee:
Yeah, totally. Totally. And so when you go to use Instagram stories or something like that, for example, you’re just building on that. You know, it’s really hard to give advice around that because, like, you know, you talked about my story and that’s kind of on my personal brand. But on our company, Instagram, I tend to keep it very much more, you know, where at this conference or I’m speaking or here’s some work we’re doing, that kind of thing. I try and keep a little bit more work related. So it really depends how you’re positioning yourself and what brand.
Lee:
But at the same time, it is really nice to throw in that relatable aspect of who you are. Like, I am a mother and I, you know, I do go out and I do enjoy good coffee and I do enjoy good food. And and that makes me super relatable as well, you know.
Lee:
And the and the other thing about Instagram stories is from a practical point of view is that it’s so functional now and it’s got so much value because you can tag where you are and you can put hashtags in it and people find you that way. I have because I go to Boulevard all the time, had a bunch of the local businesses following my business account. I don’t have that much on there at the moment because we only just started it because I decided to separate my personal brand from the business. And but just by way of tagging Boulevard in it, I’ve had businesses from around that and businesses like I want to work with, too, like professional services.
Lee:
So, yeah, so it’s just something to consider and think about and a way to build on that narrative that you are telling in many different places. But I’ll just say this, I think for everyone, if you haven’t started, pick one social media platform that you really want to invest heavily into, like a like something where you do heavy content creation, whether it’s podcast, whether you do weekly video or, you know, tutorial kind of thing or whether you just write, whether you blog.
Lee:
I highly encourage one of those three things because people are going to come back to you for that because it’s helpful and it’s of value. And then you can start building a narrative in other places that just feeds on top of that because you can always push people back to that.
Lee:
You know, the fact that you’re doing a podcast every week, you can put snippets of that on Instagram stories or Instagram itself and then tell people that they want to hear the rest of it. I’ve been meaning to do that.
Lee:
And yes, you might not have as many followers there. It might take a while to build up, but you can start targeting businesses on there with your hashtags and you can also use the link strategically and you can show snippets of your work and you can show snippets of the content that you’re creating and push people back to your website. So anyway, that’s a whole other, you know, how to use a platform like individually.
Sarah:
I think what you’re saying, my tweet version of what you’ve just said then is, is obviously we’ve established now that there’s kind of two core stories going on, isn’t there? There’s like the story that they can resonate with. There’s a story as well of your life as of you for the know, like and trust part. And that could be you and your team as well. You know, so design team, there is benefit in showing you will goof in around the office or whatever it is that you get up to in a weekly basis, et cetera.
Sarah:
But also just a practical tip there was the use of hashtags and tagging people into things like your Facebook, your Instagram feed, all those sorts of things helps to gain a new audience to you goofing around on the internet, et cetera.
Sarah:
And I’m saying goofing around. Obviously, some people are way more professional than me. But yeah, I get the idea. There is a practical tip in there.
Lee:
Oh my gosh, we’ve covered a lot. It’s been like 50 minutes and we’ve covered a lot.
Lee:
And the annoying thing is, is every time I talk with you, Sarah, I know that we’re only just at the tippy top of the iceberg.
Lee:
Yeah.
Lee:
And we never get to cover everything. But, you know, I just kind of have to encourage you to keep coming back and sharing your awesome brain knowledge that you have gained over the many years.
Lee:
By the way, quick one.
Lee:
Millennials.
Lee:
Yeah.
Lee:
Did you know that I had just snuck in there and classed as a millennial? When were you born?
Lee:
81.
Lee:
No, 82.
Lee:
82.
Lee:
Yeah. Just snuck in there. I feel, it makes me feel really young. It makes me feel young, that does.
Sarah:
Yeah. Well, I mean, you’re not as young as me, but.
Lee:
Well, that’s just bitchy.
Sarah:
Oh, that’s just what I felt that was.
Lee:
Whatever, man. Whatever.
Lee:
Speaking of socials, how can people listen to and consume your stories?
Sarah:
Well, I mean, we’ve talked about Instagram, so let’s talk about that. So I am at, I’m at 11lights media, but I’m also at the underscore Sarah underscore more. And follow both. Look, follow both because I put different content on both. My website’s not live, so don’t go there yet. And the other place is facebook.com forward slash 11lights media. I put all my videos on there. They’ll also go on YouTube, but I really don’t care about growing my YouTube. I’d rather see people interact with it on Facebook because that’s where I put everything. Everything. That’s 11lights media and the underscore Sarah underscore more.
Lee:
Like Sarah said, do follow both because she’s demonstrating two different ways of using social media. One is as a brand. One is as a personal brand. So that’s always fascinating to see what Sarah does. But also I love the fact that I know you’re going to have a website and I know it’s being built and I’ve seen a preview and it looks freaking amazing.
Lee:
But the power of social media has meant that you don’t actually have to have a website and you’re still building up an amazing client base of people all around the world without a website.
Lee:
Obviously, web designers are listening. They don’t want to hear that. I don’t really want to hear that. But just wanted to point out that social media is that freaking powerful that I feel like there’s no use for it anymore.
Lee:
Don’t paint me as a bad personally because I’ve had a website.
Sarah:
I’m just getting it redesigned. So it’s just in flux at the moment. So if you go there, it’s just a landing page. So it’s not that I’ve never had a website. I’ve never said that. It’s just been in a redesign mode for a while. I know. Just clarifying for the masses.
Lee:
Just clarifying for the masses. All right. And the other good thing in your favor as well is that you have outsourced to a professional web development company rather than trying to do it yourself.
Lee:
So that means…
Sarah:
Which was my first website.
Lee:
Which means the WP Innovator community love you because you are investing in your website and you’re investing in a business that specializes in building websites.
Lee:
So the community, Sarah Moore, thank you for your investment.
Sarah:
No problem.
Lee:
Sarah, I love having you on the show. Be on the show again.
Lee:
This is just funny. I apologize to everyone that this has been a mess of us chatting, but I bet you get tons of value out of it. I hope you’ve enjoyed listening to us chat. If you want to get to know Sarah more, more in a conversational basis as well, more, more, more, more, head on over to the Facebook group, WP Innovator.com forward slash group. And if you want to keep hearing Sarah on this podcast, then just make a noise about it in the group and tag her in posts and say, hey, Sarah, why don’t you go on WP Innovator podcast and talk about this? Because I love having her on the show. So I might as well keep getting her on. But you are the most repeat visitor. So let’s keep that going. Why not? It’s good for you. You know, and you can ask me questions in the group too, people. Because if I get enough questions, I can say to Lee, hey, Lee.
Sarah:
Hi.
Lee:
And if you call me Hayley again, I’ll be like, it’s a girl’s name. Stop it.
Sarah:
Oh, dad joke alert.
Lee:
Dad jokes.
Sarah:
So many dad jokes.
Lee:
You started with one. You ended with one. So I think it’s time we go.
Sarah:
All right. Bye, listeners.
Lee:
Bye.
Sarah:
Bye.
Lee:
Bye.
Sarah:
Love you. Bye-bye.
Lee:
You hang up first.
Sarah:
All right. No, you.
Lee:
Stop it.
Lee:
And that’s a wrap. Episode 86 with a beautiful yellow ribbon. Thanks for listening. Next week’s show, we have Nahum Kligman from Booker. Book Like a Boss. He is a great guy. Really, really interesting. Spoiler alert. Started selling sweets or candy, whatever you want to call it, at school. So this guy was a born entrepreneur. And with his company, Book Like a Boss, they have done an amazing deal with AppSumo and were giving away, practically, for a few dollars, a lifetime deal for their online booking system. Now, obviously, they’re not doing that anymore. That deal has expired. But I really wanted to find out why on earth they did that. That sounds nuts to me. And it’s a brilliant episode. He tells us why. He tells us about the benefits of him doing that. But also talks about his journey as a businessman, the failures along the way, and also the creation of Book Like a Boss and, obviously, the future plans that they have. So that’s a fantastic episode. That’s next week. Episode number 87. If you’re not part of the WP Innovator Facebook group, we are rocking on to 800, maybe even more as of past this recording, of design agencies, of web designers, web developers, freelancers, not my mum. Although I have invited her, she doesn’t accept it. All talking about design, about WordPress, and kind of just sharing life as well, which is a wonderful place to be. So head on over, wpinnovator.com forward slash group. That is the Facebook group. We will see you next week.
