Note: This transcript was auto generated then some poor soul sat and listened to it, and followed through correcting any mistakes they spotted. Please however expect human error and shout if you spot an issue. Email: lee [fancy curly symbol] trailblazer.fm.
Verbatim text
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Welcome to episode 119 of the Agency Trailblazer podcast. This is a little bit of a surprise episode where me and Troy Dean got together to have a conversation all around running a wildly successful WordPress business.
You got to check out the fantastic webinars that Troy and the team at WP Elevation are putting out. You can find that over on agencytrailblazer.com forward slash WPE webinar. That’s agencytrailblazer.com forward slash WPE webinar.
Guys, you are in for a real treat in this episode today. So sit back, relax, get a notepad and pen, maybe a stiff drink and enjoy the ride.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Welcome to a conversation with me, your host, Lee Matthew Jackson Jackson, and the wonderfully talented, smooth voiced Troy Dean. How are you today?
Troy:
I’m very well. Thank you, Lee Matthew Jackson Jackson. It is very late here in Melbourne, actually. So my voice is rather silky and rather deep this evening because it’s been a long day.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I kind of feel uncomfortable.
Troy:
Excellent. My job is done.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I was getting that slight creep feeling. What’s going on?
Actually, you were explaining to me your technology setup. Can you just, for the benefit of our listeners, can you explain how complicated your setup is to make you sound so damn good?
Troy:
It’s ridiculous. First of all, there’s lots of whiskey involved. No, there’s not, actually.
I use a USB microphone, the fabulous Rode NT-USB, which plugs into my stupidly new powerful iMac Pro computer, which I’m just in love with. But that’s not really what’s making my voice sound the way it’s sounding.
I run the microphone into Audio Hijack, which is a lovely piece of software that basically allows you to take the output and input of any device and application and reroute it anywhere within the Mac. And I’m sorry, there’s not a version for PC. It is a Mac thing.
And then directly after the microphone, I have a compressor running over the microphone to make sure that I don’t clip or distort. Then I have some little VU meters that tell me where the voice is metering. And then I route that back to my own headphones. I know, I’m completely narcissistic.
And I also route the voice into a software virtual sound card called Loopback Audio. And then what I do is I route Loopback Audio as the input into whatever you want me to record in, which in this case is just my browser. And so what’s happening is my voice is being compressed and metered before it gets to you. So you get the best possible sounding version of my dulcet tones.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s amazing. And I mean, right now, if you want to know my setup, it’s a really long USB 2 cable into an ATR2100 USB microphone. Done.
Troy:
They are nice microphones too. They are really good. I actually bought three more the other day because I’ve been using like the – I had the Blue Yeti originally. So episode five with me and you on the WP Innovator as it was called back then, I was under a blanket like passing out with the heat to try and get a decent sound because the Blue Yeti was so freaking sensitive. You could hear the neighbors farting. It was just ridiculous.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I did. I heard them actually.
Troy:
Yeah. And so – but you’ve got a fairly good – you’ve got like a really nice sounding room these days. And I’ve got to tell you something, Lee Matthew Jackson. You’ve inspired me to up my game with the audio quality of my podcast.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Really?
Troy:
Yeah. It’s a true story. And so I have – I’m actually now moving my pod – because the room that I’m in right now is quite live. It’s quite a roomy room and I’m moving my – I’ve got an audio studio downstairs that I use to do voiceovers and it’s where we voice all the videos for video user manuals and we do a whole bunch of other stuff down there.
And I’m actually setting up a dedicated podcasting station down there with my old iMac and because it’s a – basically it’s a dead room. It’s perfect for doing voiceovers and podcasting. And it was because I was listening to one of your podcasts and then I was listening to one of mine. I’m like, oh my God, mine don’t sound as neat and as clear and as nice and quiet and intimate.
And I think a podcast should really sound like a radio show. So you have inspired me to up my podcasting game, my friend.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mate. Well, I mean, it did get intimate the minute you started. It was all that creepy talk.
Troy:
I do my best.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, damn it. I love chatting with you, mate.
Troy:
Me too. Me too.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Just make me chuckle. Well, let’s get serious. Should we?
Troy:
Oh, why not? Sure. I don’t know. It feels a bit overwhelming getting serious, doesn’t it?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But I do have a few questions because WP Elevation is about to open its doors again. And I know many people who are feverishly excited about that. I’ve been a member for many a year now. And personally, I just want to thank you, mate, because I may have inspired you with the audio, but mate, you inspired me many years ago to just get my A game with my agency, especially around things like getting my contracts in order.
I mean, I was operating a business without contracts. And when I read the small print of my insurance, I realized that I had zero insurance. I was paying money. But because I had nothing in place, no agreements, no documentation, no nothing, then the insurance committee would have just laughed in my face and said, ha ha, you’re on your own. You avoided your insurance because you didn’t do your due diligence.
And just those simple things right at the very beginning where you were teaching us those sorts of things. And you put out the customized contract killer, which you kind of put for WordPress people and that. All of that was absolute, it was life-changing for me. It was also rocket fuel for my business because it instantly made me look like the real deal. I was the real deal, but I didn’t look like the real deal, if you know what I mean.
It instantly elevated me, it improved my credibility, and it made clients feel very safe and secure because they knew they were being looked after. And even I understood what the process was and I could explain it to them because not everyone knows how a website is built. So thank you, mate. I don’t know if I’ve ever said that.
Troy:
I don’t think you have. It’s an absolute pleasure.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Sorry for being rude for the last four years.
Troy:
That’s right. I understand. We all get busy. I really do appreciate you saying that because that’s why I get out of bed every day, to hear those kinds of stories. And I wish WP Elevation was around in 2007 when I started out because it was kind of a thing that I was looking for for about six years and I couldn’t find it. And then I said, you know what, I’m just going to start it myself.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You self-taught. That’s actually the best way of learning, isn’t it, mate, by teaching?
Troy:
Yeah, it is, absolutely. One of my mentors said to me, if you think you know something, teach it. And in fact, I think he stole that from someone else.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Probably.
Troy:
And it’s true. I mean, because teaching something forces you to really understand it. And because you can pull the wool over your own eyes for so long, but you can’t pull the wool over your students’ eyes, especially if they’re paying you.
Exactly. So you really do need to go deep and become, you know, you need to master a topic, not necessarily before you teach it, but certainly as you’re teaching it, you need to become a master of that topic.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Absolutely. You don’t realize that you don’t know everything. Because, like, when I was writing a module just the other day, I got so far and then suddenly went blank and then just realized I need… I did know the stuff, if you know what I mean, but you kind of need to go back to the books and just remind yourself and refresh your memory.
Because if you don’t do something for a very long time, like, for example, the last three months, I’ve hardly built any websites because I’ve been working on content and everything. And then I was doing some CSS yesterday and went blank because I had not done any CSS for three months. I was like, this is ridiculous. It came back to me after a quick Google search and everything, all was well with the world again.
Troy:
Yep.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Which is good.
Now on WP Elevation, something that struck me a real long time ago, mate, was this phrase WordPress consultant. And, you know, we go networking and we’re like, yeah, I’m a web designer or I’m just a web developer. People need to stop saying just before that, by the way.
But you do something different. You’ve built up WP Elevation and your credentials and everything that people can get around the idea of a WordPress consultant. So why have you guys done that? Like, had people label themselves or identify as a WordPress consultant versus the norm?
Troy:
Well, there’s a couple of reasons. First of all, I’m not a designer. I love design. I absolutely love good design. But you do not want me designing your invitations for your birthday or your wedding because they’ll look horrible. And it’s one of my big pain points. I wish I was a better designer than I am. And I’m a bit of a hack of a developer.
Yeah, I can, you know, I wrote my first content management system in PHP and MySQL before I discovered WordPress. And I hand wrote all the HTML and CSS and JavaScript in an application called Notepad Plus on my old Sony laptop years ago. So I can get my way through it. But I don’t consider myself an efficient developer.
And what happened is, as I realized that I needed to keep up my development chops to keep up with what was happening in the development space to be an efficient developer, I realized that, you know what, this is just not my sweet spot. I don’t identify as a developer. I find it very frustrating. I’m not very fast at it.
What I really enjoy is knowing what’s possible and being able to design a solution for a client who has a specific problem that they’re trying to solve. And what I really get off on is the aha moment where the client sees the finished product and it actually starts to either solve a problem or move the needle for their business or nonprofit or charity or school or whatever it is.
And the gratitude that you get from being able to design that solution and bring it to life for me was the most rewarding part of the whole process. So I didn’t identify as a developer or a designer. And I knew that calling myself a freelancer was bad positioning because freelancers, you know, you get to a certain point where people don’t want to hire a freelancer. They want someone that is seemingly a little more credible.
But at that point, I wasn’t an agency. It was myself and one other guy that I was kind of partnering up with on jobs. And actually, I was aware of this word consultant, but I never really kind of knew what it meant. And so I started doing some research and I started talking to a mentor of mine who kind of explained the difference between a consultant and a coach, which, by the way, is, you know, a coach will show you how to swim the laps, whereas a consultant will get in the pool and swim half the laps with you or for you.
And so I realized I think I’m a consultant. That’s what I do. I consult with clients to provide solutions. And sometimes, most of the time, I roll up my sLee Matthew Jacksonves and I get my hands dirty and I do the work and I deliver a product for them.
But I’m now paying developers to develop for me. I’m now paying designers to design interfaces. So what am I? I sit between the client and the technical team and the creative team.
And that makes me a consultant because I’m the one that understands how to how to design the solution. But I’m not necessarily doing all of the work. You know, I’m not on the tools all of the time.
So and funnily enough, just as I came to this realization, I was actually listening to a podcast called The Mac Report with our good friend, Matt Medeiros.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yay.
Troy:
And Matt, very, very, very early on, Matt was saying, you know, if you’re not a designer and you’re not a developer, just call yourself a consultant. And I went, oh, my God, he’s right. That’s exactly. Yes.
He’s like the only other guy on the planet who uses the word consultant in this whole WordPress space. So from that minute forward, I said, that’s it. I am a WordPress consultant. That’s what I do.
And when we started rolling out WP Elevation, it made perfect sense for us to to offer that to our students that, you know, we will teach you how to actually run a consulting business, not be a freelancer. And that really is the value proposition of what we do here. We help freelancers kind of grow up from and I mean that respectfully, but kind of mature from freelancer into a consulting consultancy or a consultant or a consulting firm.
And, you know, the differences are subtle, but I think the differences are important. And one of the differences that I have learned over the years and experienced in my own business and then through teaching people in WP Elevation is that consultants generally get paid more than developers or designers. So being a consultant is a good thing, I think.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. I mean, when you did finally identify as the WordPress consultant, let’s just go into the emotions now. Or did you, was this like a very exhilarating feeling?
Troy:
I think one of the interesting things happened is that I started getting haters online who were basically saying, you know, there’s no such thing as a WordPress consultant. You just can’t code, you monkey boy.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You cowboy.
Troy:
Yeah. And I said, well, actually, you’re right. I can’t code anymore because I haven’t kept up my training. And there’s all these CSS pre-processes that are coming out. And frankly, I’m a little bit lost. And I’d rather pay someone else to do that because they’re better at it.
And so, you know, I felt like it was a transition period. But I eventually kind of felt like this is, I’m comfortable being a WordPress consultant. Now, some people might say, what are you talking about? There’s no such thing as a WordPress consultant.
Well, let me just explain it like this. If you work in an office and you have a network set up and you’re all running PCs or otherwise known as IBM compatible computers using Microsoft software, I feel very, very sorry for you. But if that’s what you do.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I think you’re referencing, by the way, the fact I’ve just ordered two Dell machines.
Troy:
Yes, sorry. But I think what you might do is you might get in a Microsoft consultant or a network consultant to come in and help you basically plug everything in and get everything up and running. Because you don’t want to, as a business owner, you don’t want to spend three days of your life trying to get Microsoft servers to talk to, you know, host machines and, you know, on and on and on.
So you pay a Microsoft network consultant to come in and set it up for you, right? And they deliver you an end result. Same thing with a WordPress consultant. If you want to build a website on WordPress, you can either learn how to do it yourself or you can focus on your core business and do what you do best and hire a WordPress consultant to deliver you an end result.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yes, that is really important. And, you know, what you’re saying there as well is, and I think I was alluding to it earlier, a lot of people don’t really understand how to build a website or what the process is. They don’t understand that a designer and a developer are potentially two different people. They don’t really understand that they might even need to do things like keyword research or understand their own avatar before they even start to build a website.
These are all things that we know originally as the freelancer, but setting ourselves up as the consultant who will essentially take over and fill in all the gaps and become the conductor, as it were, of the orchestra, of the many different parts. Like you said, they get paid better. It’s a much more attractive value proposition as well to someone who wants to build a website but doesn’t really know how to go about it, which is so cool.
Troy:
Absolutely. Yeah, spot on. Spot on.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Loving it, man. Loving it.
Yeah, we are now classed as a WordPress agency because we’ve got a team of people. So I went from the WordPress consultant. So I followed your program. I was a WordPress consultant for a long time, which was great. For me, the reason why I alluded to the emotions was it was just so freeing because I felt like a freelancer for a long time, which meant I felt like I was competing with other freelance rates, which is kind of impossible in this global society because some people can live off $5 an hour.
So becoming a WordPress consultant, it changed my mindset. It changed me. It changed me. It changed me. It changed me. It also allowed me to go with confidence and boldness to some bigger businesses who normally I would never have approached as Lee Matthew Jackson Jackson, the freelancer versus Lee Matthew Jackson Jackson, the consultant. And there are marketing consultants, like even locally, who don’t even necessarily do the marketing. Lots of people have lots of people involved.
And yet they turn over thousands upon thousands of pounds every single year by simply arriving at whichever office they’re consulting for and being that kind of conductor of all of the different moving parts. And it’s actually the value of their knowledge is almost invaluable. But obviously, you have to put a price on it at some point.
Troy:
Yeah, exactly. And really, the difference between a consultant and a freelancer is that the consultant has more skin in the game, has a little more responsibility in delivering the end product. You know, if you’re building a website for a client and you are hiring or outsourcing or handing off any part of that to someone else to do some development or some keyword research or some SEO or some design, and then it’s coming back to you and then you’re delivering it to the client, you’re a consultant. That’s basically, you know, what you’re doing.
And a lot of people just have, I think, a mental block with the word consultant, maybe because they just don’t really understand what a consultant is. And it’s not, you know, it doesn’t have to be a big, scary, fancy term. It’s just a catch-all kind of term that means, you know, a freelancer basically gets a brief, builds the website, delivers it back, and whether it’s a success or not is of no concern of theirs because they’re just trading time for money and, you know, they’re getting hired to perform a particular skill.
Whereas a consultant, in my mind, has, you know, a little more care and a little more responsibility for the overall outcome of the project. And they actually have a little bit more invested in their client’s success. And that’s, I think, for me anyway, my journey when I became a consultant, I realized that I could now, you know, charge more because I was asking better quality questions about the client’s business and I was really caring about their success and I was working with them on an ongoing basis. I wasn’t just trading my time for money.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s the other thing. I think you’ve hit the sweet spot there as well with regards to the ongoing business because as a freelancer, I was receiving sites to build, design and build, job done, one bam, thank you, ma’am, nothing else ever again. Whereas with the consultant, you’re able to lead that conversation, aren’t you, about tracking the success of this website over the next six months to 12 months. What are the goals? Are we achieving those goals? And all of those sorts of things, which leads to an ongoing conversation that can actually last years as opposed to just that initial, I need a site. Yeah, here you go. Who’s next? Who do I build a website for next?
Troy:
Yeah. I mean, sorry, Karen. Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, freelancers don’t ask why you want that done that way. They just do it because that’s what the clients are paying for, you know.
If you start to ask why, then you start to get into the consulting world because, you know, and it’s a scary thing to do. And for me, it happened because a friend of mine who I was building a website for basically just hired me to build a website. And then he kept saying, oh, I want it to do this. And I want it to do this. I want it to do this.
And eventually, and I was building the website, working out of my second bedroom at home. And I rang him one day and I said, Paul, why are we doing this? Like, I get it. I understand the functionality. But just humor me for a second. Let’s just take a step back. Why are we building this website? And it really prompted him to think about why we were doing it.
And for him, it was a credibility indicator. He was in the creative industries. And he just needed people to see that his website was modern and up to date and fresh before they picked up the phone and hired his firm to do a particular job because his current website was a little bit outdated, right?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah.
Troy:
So I’m like, well, dude, all this fancy functionality that we want, do we really need any of that? Or do we just need it to look really sLee Matthew Jacksonk and, you know, be really clean and easy to use but look really professional? Because that’s all you want is people to look at it and go, yep, they’re credible. I’ll pick up the phone and call them.
And so we actually eliminated a lot of the stuff that we were talking about in the initial meetings because it actually didn’t serve the purpose. And we only got there because out of pure frustration, I was like, why are we doing this? Like four people a day are going to see this website and we’re building all this functionality.
And he didn’t need any more than four people a day to see his website because if one of those people became a client, they were worth a lot of money, right? So just by asking why, you kind of start to uncover the real motivations that are lying beneath the surface.
Whereas freelancers just generally go, okay, you want purple text on a green background? Here it is. Done.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s a good podcast title, isn’t it? Consultants ask why.
Troy:
Yeah, consultants ask why. Like that annoying kid.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Why?
Troy:
Well, that’s me. I mean, ask my dad. I mean, you know, my dad tried many ways to end a conversation with me. He used to say, that’s it, end of story. And I’d say, but why is it the end of the story? Because it’s just the end because there’s no more. That’s it. Kaput. Done. Finished.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But why?
Troy:
Because I’m your father.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But why do you get to say when it’s over?
Troy:
And his favorite one was he’d always say, because dem’s the rules. Oh, I might use that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But why are dem’s the rules? Like I drove him nuts asking why. Yes, but it paid off in the end. Well, exactly. Because now look what’s happened.
Now, you were saying earlier that freelancers will, you know, freelancers, obviously they’re not asking why. But also with regards to a freelance business, it’s very difficult to command the bigger budgets. And I remember being, you know, the freelancer days were very difficult because I was having to do as many projects as I could at quite a low amount for quite a low amount of money. It was a very stressful time.
There would be famine sometimes because I was having to build the websites and I wouldn’t have time to actually get the next piece of business in, which then meant I was going into places like Upwork and People Per Hour after I’d done my work and was desperately bidding on projects even lower than the previous job just to get the business in. So it was kind of this never ending cycle going in the wrong direction where my prices were actually being pushed down. I was still getting the same amount of work, sorry, the same volume of money in, but I was actually doing more and more work and getting less and less time with the family.
Like, which was why, you know, WPL ovation and identifying as a WordPress consultant and realizing I don’t have to do everything and that I can actually go in a different direction was so freeing. Hence the thank you right at the very beginning.
But, you know, this is a major problem. The cost of entry for a website is super low. If I watch any YouTube video, Squarespace is advertised at me all the time. I don’t know why because I clearly am into WordPress, but they keep advertising at me all the time and so do Wix, you know.
So for $99 a year, somebody can go ahead and buy a website. And I know that’s not my target audience, but equally you can go on Upwork and get a really highly talented developer online for a few hundred dollars to do something incredible.
And obviously the identifying as the WordPress consultant is that first step along the line of maybe attracting some bigger paying clients. But are there any other ways that we can position ourselves maybe more effectively to get those higher paying jobs to avoid that kind of hell that I just described?
Troy:
Well, it’s a big question. There’s lots to unpack there. But let me just give you a couple of things.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You don’t need to give us the whole spiel.
Troy:
Yeah, let me just give you a couple of things. I had a phone call from a friend of mine the other day who’s one of my mentors. He mentors me in keynote speaking. And he called me up and he said, listen, I’ve got this buddy who’s, you know, semi-retired, ex-corporate, done very well for himself. He’s now got this passion project and he needs some help building his website. Can I give him your details?
I said, yeah, sure, no worries. So he called me up. We ended up playing phone tag and eventually he texted me and I texted him back and I said, look, really sorry I haven’t been able to get back to you. But the best thing you can do to save everyone a lot of time is to go fill out this form on my website, which is basically my website worksheet inquiry form, and tell me a little bit more about your project.
Because two reasons. One, if you write it down, even in my online form, it’ll help you get clarity around what it is you’re trying to achieve. And two, it’ll make sure I don’t miss anything if we talk about it over the phone because I can’t physically make notes as quickly as you and I can talk. So I kind of need to see it written down.
So he goes and fills it. Now, that, by the way, that eliminates about 70% of your incoming leads and people that you’re talking to who want a website, which is very scary for a lot of people. But trust me, it’s a good thing because if somebody can’t fill in a basic website worksheet inquiry form, then they’re not ready to build a website and they’re certainly not ready to hire you to help them to build a website.
Anyway, John goes and fills in the website worksheet, which is unusual, like, you know, three out of ten. And I’m like, okay, so this guy’s really motivated to get this website. I ask him about his budget. I ask him about what success looks like. I ask him about, you know, why he’s doing this. What’s his, you know, passion? You know, what’s the end result of this project look like?
He tells me, you know, in the form, all the answers. And basically what he said is, look, I’m about to get on a plane and fly to this conference in Europe. I’ve kind of built my own thing in weeks, but I can’t quite get it finished. I need some help.
And so for me, he’s like the perfect, highly motivated client. Now, I’m not in a position at the moment right now to take on any client. So I actually passed this lead on to one of my colleagues. But he’s the perfect, highly motivated client because he’s already tried to crack the nut himself using something like Wix and Squarespace. Only gotten so far and realized that he needs to hire a professional to help him get it over the line.
And he’s about to go to a conference and hand out a bunch of business cards. And he wants the website to back up what it is he’s saying in this, at this conference where he’s going to be doing a bunch of networking. So that’s number one.
Number two, if you’re going to talk about, you know, hiring a developer on Upwork for a few hundred bucks to do something amazing, that’s, you know, absolutely correct. There’s also things like the grid that are introducing artificial intelligence that will take a Photoshop file and cut it up into a beautiful, responsive HTML, CSS, valid website. And we have conversations in the WP elevation group all the time about whether or not these new technologies threaten our job.
My simple answer is that’s fabulous that you can hire a robot, an AI robot to cut up your Photoshop file and turn it into a website. But here’s the question. How do you know what to put in the Photoshop file? What are you going to do? Put lorem ipsum as your headline, right? How do you know where to put your lead capture call to action opt-in forms? How do you know, you know, what categories to have in your blog or even if you should be blogging or if you just should be pulling in your Instagram stories feed onto your website? How do you know that as a business owner?
If you know, if you can answer all those questions as a business owner, you might not need to hire a web designer. You might not need to hire a WordPress consultant or a digital strategist. But if you can’t answer those questions, you need to hire someone who’s got some experience to help you.
Now, if you’re a WordPress developer like most people listening to this podcast and you’re like, well, okay, I’m sick of, you know, low-balling my prices and I want to put my prices up. This is something that you probably would have heard before, but I’ll quote him again. Mr. Seth Godin, who I, yes, I’m going to name drop because I have had the honor of having had Seth on my podcast and he quoted his friend Zig Ziglar, the late Zig Ziglar.
When Seth was on my podcast, he said, you know, my friend, the late Zig Ziglar said, it is better to be a meaningful specific than a wandering generality. So here’s the deal for me. Figure out, you know, you’re in business for yourself because you don’t want to, you know, sludge off to work and be told what to do and take orders from some chump and be miserable, right? You want to do your own thing.
So figure out what you really like doing, you know, and figure out what you’re really good at. So let me just cut to the chase. It turns out that I’m really good at conversion rate optimization and I happen to really like working with non-profits because I think they have some kind of intrinsic value in what they’re doing and it makes me feel good that we’re doing good for the community. So guess what my agency specialized in? You guessed it. Conversion rate optimization and lead gen and building up donor databases for non-profits and charities and for whatever reason we ended up doing a fair bit of work in the drug and alcohol sector here in Melbourne.
So that’s, you know, we didn’t do a lot of e-commerce websites because we sucked at it, right? And they did my head in because they were too complex.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, mate. Tell me about it.
Troy:
We didn’t do a lot of, you know, high-end fancy CSS animation or, you know, JavaScript animation stuff. We didn’t do a lot of stuff where we had to compress massive video files and build intranet portals. We didn’t do any of that because we weren’t very good at it and we didn’t enjoy it.
The other thing we didn’t do is we didn’t host websites because we were really bad at that, worse than some, and we didn’t enjoy it. So we ended up specializing in campaign work for non-profits. And that’s because we identified that that’s what we really enjoy and that’s what we’re good at.
And then guess what we did? We put out a whole bunch of content. You know, it’s not rocket science. We put out a whole bunch of content. We attended the right conferences. We networked with the right people. And we identified that our perfect client was a marketing manager who, for whatever reason, most of them happened to be women in their mid-40s or older. And they were marketing managers for non-profits and they had certain targets to reach and they did not know how to execute digital.
And so we came in and we were their digital sidekick. And that’s because we identified our sweet spot. We identified who stood to benefit the most from that sweet spot. And then we, with laser focus, put out content to help them and position ourselves as the authority to help them. And that’s how you get hired.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Beautiful. How do you not say, uh, halfway through? That just spilled out of your brain like the perfect blog post.
Troy:
Well, the thing is, you know, because I’ve been having this conversation with thousands of WordPress developers literally over the last five years on email, at WordCamps. It’s the number one question that we get. How do I get better clients and how do I get them to pay me decent fees? And it’s really simple. It’s a really simple process.
Yes, it’s difficult to execute and it takes time.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Definitely.
Troy:
It does take time. But it’s a really simple process. You have to choose which corner of the room you want to own and then you just have to own it and you have to stay there. And for me, it’s a two-year play.
The main reason that people don’t see the success that they want in their business is because they’re not, they can’t commit to going the distance. Seth Godin calls it the dip. It’s really difficult to get through the dip. You know, you have to live on two-minute noodles and toast for quite a period of time while you’re going through the dip and, you know, carving out your space.
Now, one thing that a lot of people don’t talk about is how do you pay the bills while this is all happening, right? And here’s something really controversial. I think you’re better off going and getting a part-time job and pulling beers or waiting tables or doing what I was doing, playing gigs around town as a singer-songwriter, playing brown-eyed girl to people down the local pub on a Friday night and earning a couple of hundred bucks that way.
You’re better off doing that than saying yes to a website for 500 pounds that’s going to take you three weeks because that thing is not profitable. And while you’re building that and trying to get those plugins and themes to work the way they’re supposed to work, your handbrake is on the business and you’re not actually doing any business development work. You’re not improving the business at all.
All of your energy and profit is just being sucked into that lowball job that you agreed to because you needed the money. You’re actually better off going and getting a part-time job, freeing up some of your time, taking the financial pressure off, and then focusing on putting out content to position yourself as the authority so that you can own the corner of the room that you want to own for the next two years because that’s how long it’s going to take.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I can definitely attest for two things. Number one, you saying going and getting that extra work on the side because I did, now and again, I think I described earlier, take on those 500-pound jobs and be consumed for weeks, which was definitely detrimental to my health, business, family, everything.
But also, it is a long play, going out, networking, establishing, building up your credibility, building up that content, etc. It did take two years for me to become known in the UK design scene as the WordPress guy. Then also, having the advantage of the podcast on top of that was like, again, rocket fuel to that credibility. And since I’m now known in more places than just the UK, but that took another two years beyond that.
It’s a long play. It’s not going to be quick, so don’t give in. Keep going for it. It’s just that because you have that clear plan, it gives you that ability to keep going through the dip, through the quiet times. And if you can accept that, yes, I’m probably going to have to do some bits of work on the side, whatever that is, to keep things going and eat those really nice, delicious $2 noodles. I really like them. I had some yesterday. It’s really bad. But anyway, so that wasn’t a problem for me. Something good is going to happen. It has to happen. It’s the way the universe works, damn it.
Troy:
That’s right. It is, man. It’s energy in, energy out. Exactly. And I did exactly the same thing when we started WP Elevation. I rang my business partner in Sydney and I said, dude, I don’t know how we’re going to make any money out of this, but let’s worry about that later.
What I’m going to do for the next two years is become the most helpful person on the planet to help WordPress freelancers make their business sustainable and profitable. And this all started with a video user manuals plug-in and organically grew into WP Elevation. And within a very, very short period of time, we were making more money out of WP Elevation than we were out of our client services business.
And that was because I wasn’t doing it to make money, but I was laser focused on being the most helpful person that I could be on the planet. I was doing all sorts of crazy shit for free, taking Skype calls from people at all hours, from all parts of the globe, helping them out, giving them free coaching in exchange for a tweet as a way of positioning myself as the most helpful person to help WordPress freelancers.
And I knew it was a two-year play, man. And two years later, I look back. I mean, we’re now almost five years. But I look back on that business after two years and I was like, I don’t even recognize this business, man. Like, how did this happen? And how it happened is because I didn’t quit. I stayed focused and I got through the dip.
And yeah, we were still doing consulting work up until January 2017 was the last client website that I pushed live. I’m just not in a position to do client work at this stage because we have, you know, lots and lots of members in WP Elevation that we’re serving and that’s our 100% focus. We’ve got plenty of coaches and mentors that are still in the program and still building websites and we keep our chops up and keep our hands dirty that way.
But I, you know, look back on this business now and it’s just, it’s an incredible journey. And I’m telling you, it’s, it’s, I feel extremely proud of what we’ve achieved here. And I can say that 90% of it is due to the fact that we just didn’t quit. We just kept going.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I love it. As Dory would say, just keep swimming.
Troy:
Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Gotta get a bit of Disney. And mate, you are an absolute inspiration and I’m loving, I love hearing it every time. And you are consistent. One thing that I’ve noticed though, recently, and we’ll kind of wrap up the show with this, but I’ve noticed that you guys, your content is, has always been relevant to me. That’s for a fact. But I don’t know how you’re doing it and I’m going to ask you how you’re doing it now.
But you’re, you’ve, you’re putting out all sorts of different types of content. You’re doing live streams. You’re hitting on subjects which are so super freaking emotive for me right now. It’s like you’re stalking me or something. How are you, like, I’ve noticed as 2018 and late 2017, just the production value has gone up. The sort of content you’re putting out is relevant. It’s helpful. It’s clear. And I’ve noticed as well in like the WPA elevation groups as well. Maybe I’m imagining this, but it feels like there is more engagement on that content as well. More people are getting involved in those conversations.
What are you guys doing different to maybe two years ago?
Troy:
Well, you know how everyone thinks that Facebook listen to your phone conversation, listen to your conversations on the phone or maybe even listen to you while you’re talking to your friends at the cafe through your phone.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m 100% sure they do.
Troy:
Well, so do we. We listen to your conversations too.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. Exactly. That’s how we know. I met a different Troy Dean, you know, the other day. Just saying.
Troy:
That’s how, that’s how, yeah. We listen, man. We listen to our audience.
So two things. First of all, we survey our audience a lot and we listen to our audience a lot. We get lots of feedback. We have lots of touch points. We have, there are lots of ways that we collect, collect information or data as you guys call it. We call it data. We get lots of data points from our audience.
So we know what they want. We know what their pain points are. We have Slack channels going off every day with automated zaps coming in from email responses and survey responses that just feed the entire team with language and emotions and things from our audience. And we do, we do very healthy lead capture. So we’re, you know, we’re getting lots and lots of feedback from new people every single day. And that really does inform the type of content that we put out.
The other thing that we do is that we have built a team and we’ve invested heavily in the production qualities of the content that we put out. We’ve spent, you know, upwards of, well, we’ve spent over 75,000 Australian dollars in our live stream studio in the last 12 months. And that’s because.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It’s insane.
Troy:
Yeah, that’s because I want to be the guy on the planet. I want to be the company on the planet that makes the best WordPress videos on the planet. I want people to watch our WordPress videos and go, how the hell do they do that? How many people are working in that organization?
And that’s the feedback that we’re starting to get now. And we have a team of about 20 people that touch the business on a daily basis. So they’re not all full time. Some of them are contractors. Some of them just work for us a day a week. Some of them are our mentors in our Facebook group. But there’s about 20 people who are contributing to the machine on a daily basis.
So, and the engagement is off the charts. So much so that we have people in our Facebook group saying the Facebook group is just way too busy and way too engaging and I cannot keep up. Can we please move this to another platform like a Slack channel or something else? We don’t know how to solve that problem right now. But I’ve got to tell you, it’s a very, very good problem to have when people are having trouble keeping up with the levels of engagement.
Because I’ve been in quite a few community programs over the years and, you know, it’s tumbleweeds in a lot of them. So it is a good problem to have. But, again, it just comes down to focus. I mean, you know, the next two years for me is to be, the next two years focused to me by the end of 2019. I want WP Elevation to be in a place where people enroll in the program and they know Troy Dean as one of the coaches and one of the coaching team. But I’m not the only, you know, it’s not the Troy Dean show. It’s more about the whole brand and the whole company. And that’s just another two-year play.
So, you know, we’ve got a big vision, dude, to help 50,000 freelancers over the next 10 years turn their passion into a profitable business. So, you know, I’ve got nothing else to do, man. I mean, this is what I’m doing for the next 10 years.
It sounds sad, but I’m getting goosebumps right now.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
If they’ll have me, I’ll keep turning up. You know, I love it. I mean, you know, these are my people. This is my tribe. This is what I was put here to do. So it’s pretty special when you kind of figure that out. I feel blessed and lucky that I get to come into my studio every day and do this.
I want to encourage folks who are listening as well that I’ve known Troy Dean for many years, but I’ve also been a part of some of the same programs as Troy has been a part of. And I saw, mate, years ago in Podcasters Paradise, you reaching out for people to interview on your podcast really, really early on when WP Elevation was like a baby podcast.
I think we both did WP Elevation. Sorry, we both did.
Troy:
No, you are WP Elevation.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
We both did Podcasters Paradise. You know, but that was your early. That’s the early beginnings. That was where you were finding people to come on board and build your audience. And now you are where you are. And I just want to encourage people with that, that we all have to start somewhere. And it’s when we look at other people, comparison is such a killer because people think, oh, Lee Matthew Jackson or Troy or whoever is so far down the line. They’ve got this amazing audience and all that sort of stuff.
But the fact is, we all absolutely started somewhere. We all signed up at some point for a course to learn how to do something we didn’t know how to do so that we could then launch that thing and keep turning up. And that’s what’s happened is, you know, we’ve continued to turn up. You’re several years ahead of me on the journey as well. And that inspires me because I can see where I’m going. And I know, you know, there is even more excitement to come. And I’m already having a freaking amazing time as it is.
So when you were telling me about your future plans, I was not kidding with the goosebumps. I’m still goosebumping right now.
Troy:
It’s such a great message, man. And, you know, it’s, you know, without kind of being that guy that’s like, you know, I said this on the live stream this morning. It’s like, you know, I never want to come up, like you’re the same. You never want to come across as that guy that’s like, well, if you’re not happy with your results, you should look in the mirror because it’s probably your own fault.
But that’s kind of what I want to say. It’s like, you know, and I know they’re all cliches, right? But I think maybe having our baby boy in July last year, who’s now, you know, he’s almost eight months old. But I think I’m pretty sure, dude, the minute he was born, I realized this is not a dress rehearsal, right? You’re here once and you’ve got to make every post count and you’ve got to have an impact.
And if you’re not doing something every day that sets you on fire, then just stop doing it and give yourself some time and space to figure out what actually fires you up and get your, you know, get your heart racing and your blood pumping. Because life is too short to do stuff that doesn’t make you explode with excitement.
And I’m sorry, but I have no special superpowers that have allowed me to put myself in a position now where I literally bounce out of bed at six o’clock every morning and I cannot wait to come to work and contribute to this community that we’ve built.
I have no special powers that have allowed me to do that other than the fact that I have been fortunate enough and had the wherewithal enough to allow myself the space and the time. And I’ve surrounded myself with enough smart people and spent enough on my own personal development to put myself in a place where I can go, you know what? I’m not doing that anymore because it doesn’t make me happy. And if that upsets people or it costs me the bank account for a little while, then too bad. I don’t care. I’m going to do what makes me happy because that’s when I’m best and that’s when I’m best to everyone else.
When I’m happy, then I’m good to everyone around me. So, you know, and, you know, you’ve only got one shot. So figure out what it is that you’re passionate about and then just do that and don’t quit. And within what seems like a really short space of time, a couple of years, you look back and you go, holy shit, check this out. This is amazing, you know.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It flies, doesn’t it?
Troy:
Yeah. And I’ll tell you something. When I went to Pressnomics, the first time I went to Pressnomics, and I know people look at us now and they’re like, oh, well, you guys have got this audience. You’ve got this podcast. You’ve got this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
When I first went to Pressnomics and I was hanging out with the guys from WooThemes and I was hanging out with Corey Miller from iThemes and everyone in the WordPress space was there. I was so intimidated, Lee Matthew Jackson, that I went to the very first session of Pressnomics. And after the very first session, I ran back to my hotel room and hid because I was so freaked out by all the WordPress rock stars that were there. And I then had to talk myself back into going out into the conference and networking. And I did that several times over that three-day period where I would just go back to my hotel room and hide because I was so freaked out and intimidated by all these rock stars.
And, of course, you just realize that they’re normal people, you know.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Absolutely.
Troy:
So, you know, we all start somewhere, but, you know, no one remembers the person who quit. So just find something you love and just keep doing it and the rest will take care of itself.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That was beautiful. I want to put some really dramatic music behind that just to add some extra effect. Although it was that good, I don’t even think we need any dramatic music. I am now fired up for the next five more years. Thank you for it.
Troy:
You were just going for the 70s guitar style.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Exactly. Well, you were born in the 70s, weren’t you?
Troy:
I was. True story.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
True story. You just remember the end of the 80s. Sorry, end of the 70s. You’re more of an 80s guy, aren’t you?
Troy:
Yeah, I am, man. Yeah, yeah. So you watch, what’s it, Stranger Things and you’re like, yeah, I remember that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You know what? I’ve never seen Stranger Things. It’s on my list, but I haven’t got to it yet.
Troy:
It’s pretty freakishly good.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Happy Days was one of my favorite shows when I was growing up. Happy Tuesday, Happy Days.
Troy:
Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And another show that probably no one will remember, but another show, John Travolta’s first show called Welcome Back, Cotter.
Troy:
What? Go and Google that. Go and Google Welcome Back, Cotter with John Travolta. Man, one of my favorite shows.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
We will hopefully remember to put a link in the show notes to that one.
Troy:
It’s worth it. Trust me.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Troy, thank you so much for your time. Folks, Troy is running an amazing webinar series. This is a whole ton of free content with regards to how to run a wildly successful business. And I feel like we’ve already had an amazing preview of some of that content in this show today. You can find some more information over on agencytrailblazer.com forward slash WPE webinar. There will be a link in the show notes.
Mate, you are a complete legend as always. I appreciate your time and the jokes and the laughs and everything else. Have a wonderful day.
Before you go, how can people connect with you? And then we’ll bid you adieu.
Troy:
Well, you know, the thing is, people should just look out for Sarah Moore on Facebook and Twitter because that’s how you and I met, dude. And, you know, so if people want to get in touch with me, then just get in touch with Sarah and then she’ll introduce us, right?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I feel like we knew each other before Sarah Moore, actually.
Troy:
Did we?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Because it was me who introduced you to Sarah Moore.
Troy:
Oh, is that right? Is that what happened?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But let’s shout her out. Right, I can’t. You are getting older, mate. It’s understandable. You’ve breached 40.
Troy:
That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. I think you’ve breached 40.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So you introduced me to Sarah Moore. There we go. All right, we’ll close that loop. I’m terribly sorry. I’m terribly sorry.
Well, if you want to get in touch with me, then just stalk Lee Matthew Jackson Jackson online and he can introduce you to me.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, if you listen to the podcast, that’s happening.
Troy:
Yeah. Twitter at Troy Dean is probably the easiest place and WP Elevation.com is where the videos and the podcast and the blog are.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Awesome.
And, guys, if you want a bit of fun to listen to Troy Dean, I recommend you head on. Is your old blog still there, TroyDean.com.au, which has got your cabarees?
Troy:
Yes, it has. TroyDean.com.au, I think it was. He’s got his cool cabarees advert where he does the voiceover because this guy doesn’t have this good a voice and not get paid for it. So, go ahead and check that one out.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Thanks for having me, Lee Matthew Jackson. I really appreciate it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Thanks for your time, mate. Take care.
Troy:
Bye.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Bye.
