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Verbatim text
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Welcome to the WP Innovator podcast, the podcast for web designers and design agencies, exploring the world of WordPress and online business.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And now your host, Lee Jackson. Hi, and welcome to episode number 105 of the WP Innovator podcast. This is your host, mister Lee Jackson. On today’s show, we are talking to a young and devilishly handsome, mister Jeffrey Patch, and he’s from America land where people talk like this all the time. Well, well, actually they don’t, and that was terribly stereotypical. And I would like to apologize on behalf of my company for stereotyping all Americans with that terrible accent. So let’s move on. In this episode, we’re gonna be talking about moving your agency from a place of doing too much for free and then actually monetizing what you’re doing.
Jeffrey Patch:
And Jeffrey’s gonna share with us how he was doing an awful lot of maintenance and other services for free and then realized that he was offering amazing value, needed to be charging for that and has since evolved his business phenomenally, especially around the area of maintenance. That’s WordPress maintenance, website maintenance, etcetera. So it’s a really fascinating episode and Jeffrey happens to be one of the nicest guys on the planet, so that really helps. So don’t forget, we have a Facebook group. Head on over to wpinnovator.com/group where lots of us hang around and say nice things to each other and share gifs and cat pictures are kind of history now. It’s gifs. GIFs is cool. So come and share some gifs in the WP Innovator group.
Jeffrey Patch:
It’s wpinnovator.com/group. And until then, sit back, relax, enjoy the ride, and please, please, please keep your arms, your legs, your head, and any other appendage, don’t be rude, in the vehicles or vehicle at all times. That was probably the weirdest intro I’ve done yet. Enjoy the show. So I just wanna talk to you, mate, about the Coors Light that I am aware you’re drinking. And what is it with Americans and their and their watery beer?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No. Hold on. Before I answer that, did you know that I was drinking because you heard me gulp and try to, like, not burp under my breath, or did you just say that because you knew I had it from the video a second ago?
Jeffrey Patch:
If you hadn’t said that, I would have never known. But now we know for time and eternity, it is officially recorded in digital that you are totally gonna burp. But but don’t worry about it. Before we carry on,
Lee Matthew Jackson:
guys totally wise.
Jeffrey Patch:
Guys, you’re joining a conversation with me and Jeffrey Patch, but I’ve gotta finish this point. You know, I lead worship sometimes at church, mate. There are times when halfway through the song, especially when it’s, like, either either at a bit where you have to take a deep breath and and, like, it’s gonna be powerful moment. You know, this is there’s gonna be power in this song when everyone’s, like, gearing up. And you take a deep breath, but then it kinda get a bubble in your throat, and you think, you know what? I’ve got a microphone in front of my face. I’m about to sing a very moving part of this worship song right now. Everyone’s gonna be in the zone, and I really wanna let out a humongous burp. It’s it’s the worst feeling ever.
Jeffrey Patch:
It’s just like, oh, how do I cope? I’m I’ve never I’ve managed to never burp other than, you know, pretend I’ve, like, taken the, microphone away from myself and, like, pretend to look up and then kind of do one of those, you know, those kind of those kind of
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Looking off to the distance, blowing a little bit under your breath. And you feel so much relief right afterwards.
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, yeah. Because then I can get back in the zone again. But I’ve also done it in the quiet songs as well. It’s like it’s a lovely quiet song. You know? And I’m like, oh, no. Oh, no. I can feel it. It’s horrible.
Jeffrey Patch:
It’s part of the nerves.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Back in high school, I had the total crush on this girl and that we all used to hang out with. And I used to always, you know, have to burp, and I’d I’d be embarrassed so I would kinda not do it, you know, and get that bubble in your throat. And then my voice would change, change. You know? And I was already, like, barely going through puberty. So it’s like, yeah. You know? You did this one.
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, hi.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Hi, everybody. You know? And she would literally call me out. I’d be like, yeah. Just just burp. Just burp the damn bubble out of your throat. Okay. Yeah. I’m never getting a date with you.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Am I?
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, that’s hilarious. Guys, I could just imagine that. I loved your voice. You sounded a bit like Barney for a second then.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m afraid to hear the the choreo.
Jeffrey Patch:
There’s some childhood nightmares. But who thought of that concept?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I don’t know.
Jeffrey Patch:
Dinosaur. Anyway, guys He
Lee Matthew Jackson:
was so creepy.
Jeffrey Patch:
Yeah. He was, wasn’t he? Creepy guy. Great voice, though. You know, creeps. But, guys, anyway, you are clearly joining a conversation. If you can call that a conversation all about burping. Total boy things there, wasn’t it? That’s stereotypical. I’m sorry.
Jeffrey Patch:
Might have to edit that out. Anyway, you are joining a conversation with me, Lee Jackson. You should know that. And Jeffrey Patchy is from Doozy Creative. He’s also from Maintain Press because he can multitask and do two things at once. That’s pretty damn cool. He’s also devilishly handsome with a good beard. And, in the picture I’m looking at, bit of a bold head.
Jeffrey Patch:
So I’m quite liking this look, mate. How are you doing?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, man. I’m great. You really did. You just broke me up. Are are you gonna send me your address? Like, make sure they give you a good Christmas card? I
Jeffrey Patch:
was gonna just do an ecard and then put at the bottom that I donated on behalf of charity to you. You know, to to a charity of my choice on your behalf kind of thing. Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You’re so new school.
Jeffrey Patch:
No. No. No. That’s just called lazy.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, man. It’s it’s really good to be on here. I’ve, I’m actually buttering you up back, but, I’ve listened to your podcast for a while now. And I I kinda made a note to myself a few months ago, and I said, I wanna get on a podcast this year. And this is the first one that I’m doing, and this is the first one that I wrote down as a goal. So thank you for having me. I don’t know what stupid mistake you made to, to do this. You must be desperate, but I appreciate it.
Jeffrey Patch:
No. Not desperate at all. In fact, I recorded today episode 100. And during episode 100, I explained one of the lessons that I’d learned. And one of the lessons I’ve learned, and you’ll need to go back. This is probably episode a hundred and six folks that you’re listening to, so you need to go back to episode a hundred for this one. But one of the lessons I learned was that it’s actually better to get normal people like you and me on the show because we are both normal people. And I’ve had some big names on the show like Chris Tucker and that, and I’ve been super excited about it.
Jeffrey Patch:
But the podcast that get the most engagement actually turns out to be podcasts where we’re actually dealing with people from the real world because none of us are really in the Chris Tucker’s worlds, are we? Not unless you’re super successful multimillionaire, which which I’m definitely not. And are you keeping any secrets? Are you multimillionaire?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No. Well
Jeffrey Patch:
well, there you go then. So these sorts of shows are better. They get more engagement. They get more downloads. People are more interested in them because we can relate, can’t we? So there you’re not the booby prize, mate. I was super happy. We’ve been friends for a while on Facebook, and we giggled and gift each other all the time and everything. So why the hell not be on the show? You are totally the right person for the show.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, that’s what makes your podcast so amen, brother. That’s what makes your podcast so great is that it is so relatable. You know, you can tune in, and you may not know who the person is on the other line, but, you know, you you become familiar with them. And, I mean, I’ve made friends just by guests on your podcast too. So it’s a it’s a great community that you’ve built.
Jeffrey Patch:
That’s awesome. And you’ve just shown your age by saying on the other line. It’s like
Lee Matthew Jackson:
On the other line.
Jeffrey Patch:
The studio now. This isn’t like a radio call in.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh my gosh. Right? At least say things like that. Kids are like, do you mean put them on hold?
Jeffrey Patch:
Jeffrey online too. What’s your question?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, the old radio days. I used to call under them. They’ve got caller 1, caller 2, caller +1 06. Oh my goodness. How many callers are you gonna take?
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, then you get someone, like, swearing on the phone and be like, I am so sorry about that. It is drive time here. If your kids heard that, I humbly apologize. So and then they kinda moved on. There you go. But let let’s let’s talk about you for a little bit because, like, we’ve been doing this for a while now. Like, I I just ended up hitting record because we were having a a funny conversation. We’d we talked about beer and all sorts of stuff.
Jeffrey Patch:
I was like, well, the hell. Let’s just hit record. This is funny. And, I’d I’d love to just learn a little bit about your two businesses. You’ve got Doozy Creative. You’ve got Maintain Press. Can you just kind of give us the tweet version of what both are, and then we’ll unpack it a little bit further?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Sure. Cut me off for, like, forty minutes if I go too long. Okay?
Jeffrey Patch:
No worries. I’ll sit back.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Duzi Creative, is my, you know, kind of the extension of my longtime freelance WordPress career. We’ve evolved to an agency a little over a year ago. And, you know, we don’t do a whole lot online as far as being very vocal and then putting out a lot of content. We just kind of, you know, handle the website projects that that we have and that we get. We work mostly off referrals there. But MaintainPress evolved from both of those, my, you know, my freelance years and then the agency as well. And, and we offer WordPress maintenance services, support services, the like. You know, a lot of developers.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It is a hot rage right now is all the care plan talk and stuff. But, we do that for our own clients as well as for other agencies as well. So, you know, the biggest problem that a lot of freelancers and agencies have had that I’m sure you’ve been there. I’m sure half the listeners have been there. And that’s you start doing websites for well, actually, the cost doesn’t matter, but a lot of times they’re, you know, cheap $500,000 websites. And then they’re maintaining them for years and years and not making any money off of it. So, probably about two years ago, I looked at my taxes and went, oh, wait. I made how much money last year? And that was not a lot because I was busy maintaining everything and not charging anybody for it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So I put a real big hard stop on that and said, you know, we gotta we gotta sit back and readdress. And and we did. And, couple years later now, you know, we’re able to offer these white label for people and then starting to grow. And we’re just trying to help agencies and freelancers and graphic designers and developers grow their business by making sure their clients are maintained, whether that’s helping them do it themselves or offering white label stuff. So we’re really trying to, you know, to kinda grow our, our Facebook and online presence and whatnot with our content. And, we’re really hoping for some big, big evolution here in the end of twenty seventeen.
Jeffrey Patch:
That’s awesome. I love the fact you found a massive pain point. This is a pain point that I have that I’ve been actively looking at partners for as well because we are not set up really to do the ongoing support. We’re kind of set up more for doing the the bigger kind of longer term projects and being, set up for consultancy as well because they’re the most valuable products. And we do sell the support packages, but they’re not very profitable because they’re very time intensive for us as an agency. So, yeah, that’s certainly something that is a pain point for me, and it’s certainly something I was never charging for either. Initially, it was it was a nightmare. The the amount of hours you’re spending keeping people up to date and the expectation that you are going to keep them on date for free for life is ridiculous.
Jeffrey Patch:
I even remember ten years ago, probably now, when I built a website and the the person actually managed to get a full refund out of me after a year because I sent them an invoice for another year’s worth of hosting, and they argued that I should be hosting it for free for life and all sorts. Don’t know where that came from, but you just you’ve just unleash a whole world of painful memories.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It’s scary. It’s it’s unbelievable. It’s unbelievable what people just assume, you know, you will do. And, you know, you spend enough time doing it, you realize, well, it’s kind of an honest mistake because I didn’t tell them otherwise. So how could I expect them, you know, to think differently? And so until you communicate that with your clients, and and I’m sure, you know, you’re a lot better at it now, and I’m definitely a lot better at it now. But, you know, I would get so kinda internally angry at a client. Oh, why why are they thinking that? Why are they assuming we’re gonna do that? I mean, don’t they realize that I’ve got a roof over my head? You know? But then you realize, well, I didn’t tell them otherwise, so it’s not fair to, you know, to expect them to just throw money at me. But, you know, I think that’s that may just be people being too nice, and I definitely fall into that category sometimes.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So fifteen minute fix. Sure. I got it, and I won’t bill you for it. Two hours later. You know?
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, man. I do that a lot. Now, I mean, on that, though, I mean, you are totally right. You have to feed your family. And there I agree and I disagree with you because, yes, you didn’t tell them necessarily that, you know, this support doesn’t come shouldn’t come free because you have to feed your family. But at the same time, surely, people kinda realize that somebody’s gotta physically do something, and they can’t work for free forever. So I I think a little bit of your frustration is kind of I think you’re allowed to have a bit clearly, I’m having issues here. I think we’re on this is like therapy.
Jeffrey Patch:
Are you a shrink or something?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No. But, you know, I definitely just got a psychology, so I think I am.
Jeffrey Patch:
I’ve got I’ve got stress I’ve got the I’ve got these feelings of stress coming out of me right now thinking you know, because I can remember these clients that have done this to me, and I’m like, why did they expect that? And then late nights and the bugs that it would create. And oh, man. Do you or
Lee Matthew Jackson:
did you ever read, the clients from hell blog or Tumblr or whatever it was? I don’t know. I had to stop
Jeffrey Patch:
I had to stop reading it because it felt like somebody was stalking me.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Right.
Jeffrey Patch:
And it was too negative. I don’t wanna be negative today. It’s just like suddenly for some for no reason, it just all spewed out of me randomly when you said all that, especially when you said the good taxes. I think that’s what it was. I just kinda I’ve I’ve, you know, I’ve got negative memories about taxes. But, yeah, I I’ve really tried to surround myself with more positive messages in the client the clients from help blog, which is utterly hilarious and hashtag relatable. Yeah. I kind of had to kind of weed that out about a year ago because That’s
Lee Matthew Jackson:
that’s probably why I don’t use it very much because, yeah, I think it started to bring me down. But it’s hilarious.
Jeffrey Patch:
Yep. So if you wanna go and have a laugh at other people’s expenses, go ahead and check that out. The client from hell I can’t remember the URL, but we’ll find it, And we’ll put it in the show notes. And if you’re in Jeffrey, he might even be googling it right now. No.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I think it’s clientsfromhell.com, but There you go. I don’t know. You guys can Google it.
Jeffrey Patch:
So you’ve you’ve got you’ve got the agency, and I’m I’m gonna kinda put you on the spot here. Like, you’ve got an agency. You’re offering the white label services. Are they profitable? Are you looking at, like, the because they’re not very high priced. So is it the idea if you wanna kind of get them in on volume? So if you’ve got lots and lots of support packages, then that’s good for you guys because you’ve got a volume of support packages in. Because I never even understood how WP curve made it work at 99.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s definitely a good point, and that’s probably one of the biggest reasons why it’s not always in that’s excuse me. I’m gonna start over. You got a good point. And that’s probably one reason why it’s not always in, you know, developer or freelancer’s best interest to just offer these if they’re not willing to spend that time because it does add up. But, I think one of the biggest things that I’ve learned in this last, you know, year or two of doing this is that the more automated you can do, and I don’t mean automating your, you know, updates and stuff like that. That’s kind of dangerous. But the more systems you can put in place, the more automations you can do, and just the better you can grow the business from a operational standpoint
Jeffrey Patch:
Mhmm.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
The better leg you’re starting on. So that was one of our biggest keys. But volume is definitely the biggest one, and I’m gonna kinda let you in on this because we definitely advertise to the public.
Jeffrey Patch:
Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But it’s not really our biggest target. You know, we want the agencies, and we want, you know, freelancer that comes in with, say, at least ten, fifteen accounts, hopefully, that we can kinda help them whether it whether they’re ready to go with maintenance or they’re ready to evolve that so they can start profiting on it. But that’s kind of our sweet spot.
Jeffrey Patch:
I like that. I like the concept of agencies because, yeah, because if you’ve got one person off of the street, you know, the the amount they’re spending won’t necessarily cover the amount of time you’re spending on them. But if you’ve got a larger account, you’ve got the scope for consultancy and all of the other opportunities that that relationship will potentially generate as well. It’s exactly the same as us. We we produce WordPress themes for agencies. They will design it, and we will then do the build of the code and produce the theme, etcetera. That’s kind of our corporate and butter, but what’s happened as a result of that is loads of other opportunities have come off of that. It maybe started as a theme.
Jeffrey Patch:
It actually became then a custom development of an application, like a CRM system, or it became, you know, consultative relationship where we’ve helped them shift from a core print business to a core digital business instead as well. So I I think that’s a really, really good niche, a really powerful niche, to be in. So, hey, agencies. Check out my boy, Jeffrey Patch. I don’t know what else to say after that.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’ll let you play it.
Jeffrey Patch:
I can’t really freestyle. That’s one thing. I kept joking and and challenging John Perez to I don’t know if you know John Perez, to, a a for, like, a freestyle battle. And thankfully, he’s never taken me up on it because I literally can’t I can’t rap at all.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. No offense. And I don’t I don’t know him personally. I just, you know, know him through the online world. And with that, he’s got that thick New York accent. Right? I think he would just blow you out of the water, man. I don’t think I don’t think you could even stand a chance.
Jeffrey Patch:
I wouldn’t. I’d probably start saying, like, there was an old man called Lee who lived in a house you see, and then that was not even rap, is it? That’s just a poem.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Every now and then, I can freestyle, like, in front of the kids, and they just think it’s hilarious. Then I try to do it, you know, in front of people that actually could pay attention to the words I’m saying. And I realized, I’m just speaking gibberish here, and I sound like a total
Jeffrey Patch:
idiot. Scoop. Right. Do you see oh, sorry. Cam?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, actually, I wanted to go back. You know, one thing you said about, you know, helping, you know, helping in this niche, the biggest thing really is that we can help an agency partner in a different way than we can, say, one website owner.
Jeffrey Patch:
Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Not that we wouldn’t wanna help one website owner, but, you know, we can help another agency put those systems in place so they can, you know, be handling twenty, thirty, 40 of their clients. And I just feel like that’s kinda how it spreads, and that that’s really how you make a bigger difference in the industry.
Jeffrey Patch:
That’s true. Having a process for things is something that years ago, I mean, as an agency, we always knew we needed to put processes in place, but it always seems like a facing to have to sit down and work it out what it is you do and to unpack those things and weed out what our time wasters and then documentize and systemize it. It really sounds unsexy. It sounds unsexy to you. You gotta admit it, Jeffrey. Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, it’s terrible. Yeah.
Jeffrey Patch:
What I just said, I said process size to size and systemize. You were just like, ugh. But, like, internally but the actual the actual payment for that is phenomenal. It’s like the podcast being out we’ve got a a really slick process for this podcast. We can produce content all the time, and it’s not even an effort, but that’s because we put a lot of effort into the process. So, yeah, having processes. And I I assume you’re not gonna give too much of your processes away because that’s what people need to go and find out over at maintain.press/agencies. Is that right?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s, yes. I believe that’s the URL. I should double check that since we just put it up there.
Jeffrey Patch:
I did
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yes, sir.
Jeffrey Patch:
I did just Google you. So you know?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, I was like, was it slash agencies or slash partners or what does it double check? But it’s agencies.
Jeffrey Patch:
I wanna pick you up on something you said earlier. You mentioned that you had kind of shifted. Excuse me. You mentioned you’d shifted from, freelance to agency. Can you just kind of tell us how that shift happened? When did you decide you needed to become an agency? What were the signs? Because there are freelancers right now listening to this show wondering where to go next.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, man. Well, I wish we would have recorded this a month or two ago, and I would have said, go to WP Elevation, which has been a huge, huge thing. Well, I know you’re in there now. Right? Well, Well, I
Jeffrey Patch:
was in there, like, two years ago, and I I had a chat with Troy. And I was like, will you let me back in? Because I kinda miss it. And he’s like, yeah. Yeah. Come in. He’s a good he’s a good guy.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I just totally got sidetracked. Can you remind me what you what were your question was exactly?
Jeffrey Patch:
I said, how do you maintain such a good head of hair? And then after that, I said, for the for people listening, freelancers especially who are listening, how how did you realize you needed to pivot into agency life, and how did you go about doing that? What were the signs? What did did you start to do to go from being freelance? Hey. Jeff’s a good web guy to this is Doozy Creative. We are an agency.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You know, I think I hit a point where I just said, I need to be taken more seriously. And for me to be comfortable, I needed more people around me. And I wasn’t just, you know, hiring people and then saying, oh, now I have a team. I have an agency because I’m, you know, shelling out all my profits amongst my team. It wasn’t that at all. But I knew that there were issue not issues, but, you know, part parts of the business that I wasn’t great at, that I was good. I could I could definitely you know, I’m I’m an okay designer, but I’m not a great designer. So once I said, okay.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m gonna stop being this cheap freelancer pumping out $1,500 websites. I need to have the confidence to, you know, to sell higher. I also need the expertise in other areas. And so we just started growing and, you know, learning more. Like I said, WP Elevation was a huge, huge benefit for me. You know, and and I’m still constantly growing and struggling different aspects, but that’s just kinda the way business is. But I I get I guess if you’re at a point where you realize that you cannot financially make it work, you know, if your business is not profitable for you, then you have to either, you know, change it, fix it, or get the heck out. You know? And I think I had one of those moments.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I mentioned earlier with taxes. You know? I I looked down at my taxes one one year, and I just went, wait. I made, like that was, like, $3,000, like, that that year before for the entire year. And I had a big contract that I kinda relied on. So, you know, I won’t go into that. But for my freelance business, I had I mean, like, $3,000. And I was like, this is insane. Like, I was working full time on this business.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Like, why would I why why would I keep doing this? I’m doing something wrong. And that’s when, you know, took a step back and went, oh, well, it’s because I spent, well, a hundred and twenty hours this month doing maintenance and ninety hours the next month doing maintenance. And, you know, I didn’t bill for much of it. And so had to cut a few clients, couple agency partners that I’ve been working with for years that just weren’t profitable anymore. And he just realized that it’s it’s time to kinda, you know, shit or get off the pot. Excuse me. But, you know, it’s one of those things. And so if you’re a freelancer or you’re, you know, small agency developer, whatever it is you call yourself, and you’re starting to hit that point, then I think you really need to step back.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And it’s not not saying quit, but you need to look at your options and and look at maybe, you know, where are those pain points? How can you solve them, or how can you bring in people to solve them. Could may maybe the answer is growing. Maybe it’s, you know, maybe it’s getting a little smaller too. I imagine everything could be completely reversed for certain cases. But, you know, that that was definitely my experience.
Jeffrey Patch:
I I think as well, just to go on from that, if you are a freelancer and you are kind of hitting burnout as well, maybe you’re earning good money, enough money to cover the bills, etcetera, but you are physically drained, mentally drained, and family life or time, you know, all of that sort of thing is struggling, that’s another sign as well. What was your phrase to shit or get off the pot?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Shit or get off the pot. I like it.
Jeffrey Patch:
I Is
Lee Matthew Jackson:
that is that an American say?
Jeffrey Patch:
I’ve literally never heard of it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I love it. It’s
Jeffrey Patch:
it’s like that’s going into my armory. I am gonna fit that into my next meeting somehow. But, yeah, I mean, if if you are experiencing that that burnout, like, you are just working all of the hours, that’s something that that led me to shift from Lee Jackson dev, the the the developer guy, to realizing that I needed to massively increase my prices and start to think like an agency and get other people involved. So when you, like, how did you deal with the fear? Because you said that you dropped some clients that were unprofitable. Was there any fear in that? Was that just a complete logical step for you and you just said, Tara, and then started looking elsewhere? How did you go about doing that? Because that’s freaking scary.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It’s you know, it’s really yes. It is. It’s really scary. And and I’ll admit right here publicly, I’m terrible at it. I hate confrontation. I’m just one of those people that that doesn’t like it. You know what I mean? I just started sweating thinking about it right now. But you you just kinda have to have a real talk sometimes, and then, you know, look at the issues too.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And, occasionally, it might be one of those situations where you go, you know, this is bothering me for, you know, this. Usually, it’s annoyance for me. It’s like I’m just so annoyed something this client does. You know, they won’t follow the rules. They won’t follow my process or something, or they refuse to pay on time. Whatever it is, you know, you you can sit back and look at that and go, well, is that something that maybe if I have a real honest conversation with them, can we can we fix this? Can we maybe improve on this? And so that’s when I talk to some, you know, free other freelancers and and people like that, I I go, well, before you just, you know, cut your ties, is it at least worth having a conversation? Yeah. You know, get hop on Skype, have one of those awkward talks, and, you know, let them know. Hey.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Look. This isn’t really working, for whatever reason. You know? You tell them your reasons, obviously. But, you know, I just need to talk to you. Now I can do to help you find the person, you know, if you’re willing to spend the money on it. This is, you know, it’s gonna cost you this possibly. But I need to either send you over here or you can look at our plans. I mean, what whatever the situation is.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m getting way too general here. But, sometimes you just need to communicate, And that’s the most difficult thing for the vast majority of people.
Jeffrey Patch:
There’s a real truth in that, and I won’t go into details because it’s kind of quite fresh for us as well. But we’ve we’ve had a a couple of scenarios even now in agency life where we’ve had, relationships that have been quite difficult. And I too don’t like confrontation. I don’t like, arguing over stuff. Although, it was a difficult decision. We decided that we needed to have a conversation with a client and explain to them that we would either have to part ways and help them find another developer or things had to change. And the things that had to change were really, like, severe. Surprisingly enough though, in this case, the client actually said, you know what? If it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t work for us.
Jeffrey Patch:
And let’s find a way of making it work for everyone. And that that really surprised me because I thought we were gonna have to hand them off to somebody else. So actually having that conversation needn’t be as scary as we make in our minds. And sometimes relationships can be saved if it’s just a case of having that communication, isn’t it? On the flip side, if the client is a complete ass, let’s just fire them anyway, I guess.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, yeah. There’s definitely some of those.
Jeffrey Patch:
So I just wanna pick you up on something that you said earlier, mate. And you mentioned that you’re an okay designer, which is a little bit negative. It’s like a negative self image of yourself, and I think that is what a lot of designers have of themselves. They look at their own work, and they’re never really happy with it. And that’s probably one of the main reasons that I am actually an advertised web developer who works with agencies with their designs because I never am happy with my own output. So how did you rewind to pre bearded Jeffrey? How did you get into design in general? And was it websites and then design followed, or was it design then websites?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, I’m gonna go back so far to say that when I started doing website it was websites, to answer your question. But when I started doing it, it was more coding than it was design. Mhmm. I mean, there there wasn’t there just wasn’t, you know, browsers. There wasn’t fancy design. There was no real CSS. It was just raw HTML and some images. So, you know, I had one of those GeoCities sites or whatever with animated GIF flames.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You know? I mean, it was the coolest thing ever. But I’ve graduated a little bit since then, as far as my design skills. But all my design stuff has been completely just kinda self taught. I mean, I I never went to school for it. I did a little bit of programming in college and dropped out because it just was a little outdated at the time. But, for me, it’s just been a natural evolution of following the industry, following what’s going on out there, and just self taught. Yeah. I mean, I I know what you mean.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It’s we probably are a lot harder on ourselves than we need to be. But I I still you know, I work with a designer, and I go, okay. They’re a designer. You know? They see it right away. Whereas I have to look at it and think about it, sit on it, take a nap, get a beer, take another nap, and then I’m starting to get, oh, okay. Now it’s unfolding. Do you know? So it’s it’s kinda what we’re talking about earlier. It’s just finding what you’re good at and what you’re not good at and then surrounding yourself with the right people or the right tools or, you know, whatever it is that you can fix.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But, but, no, it’s it’s been a long journey of trying to become a good designer or a good developer, and and, you know, I’m okay. I’m getting there. You’re making me feel a little bit better about myself. I think you’re
Jeffrey Patch:
a pretty good designer. I quite enjoy looking around your sites right now, and I was taking a look at colorblind as well, which kind of blew me away. I I really love what you’ve done there, especially with Thanks. Photography. I don’t know if you were involved with the photography as well, but it looks phenomenal. No.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And I’ll and I’ll admit that, you know, a lot of that design was, you know, brought by them because they are an agency as well. So they kinda brought that design to me and, you know, and I turned it into a real website. I mean, that’s kinda what we do a lot of times. You work with agencies that have already ventured off and gotten their designs done. And I love that because it takes that part out, then I can do my magic, which is turning it into a functional design, you know, because most of them have you learned that? You know, you get designs from a client from your agency work. I’m really curious now. I’m gonna turn the interview around on you for a second.
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, this is funny.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You know, you get, I just get this all the time. I get a a design from a designer, you know, through an agency or whatever it is, and they don’t look at their responsiveness. You know, they don’t actually look at how it functions. It’s just it’s a pretty good design, which is great. You know? But, you know, if you’re not an expert at making it actually work in the real world, then you end up with all these issues. And, you know, I’ve been there and I’ve fixed that, but I still get this from designers all the time. They don’t think about the other things. And I’m not trying to bad about designers.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’m just curious about your experience.
Jeffrey Patch:
My experience is exactly that. The I think a lot of the issues is responsive is very new. It’s I don’t know. Is it
Lee Matthew Jackson:
is
Jeffrey Patch:
it even five years old, like, the the idea of responsive websites? Because we had websites appearing on the 02/2007 iPhone. And if you watch the launch video, he was zooming in pinch zooming into a full version of I think it was like the New York Times website, which looked like the desktop version. And then it kind of took years. I feel like it took years for it to really catch on for websites to go responsive. And I still remember clients asking and even saying, oh, no. I don’t want it to be a a mobile website. And this was, like, five years ago. I remember them saying this.
Jeffrey Patch:
No. No. No. This is this is a desktop website. Don’t don’t want it to be responsive. I want it to look the same, etcetera. So it feels a relatively new thing, and a lot of designers come from a print background. So most design agencies, maybe ten years ago, were in print and then pivoted into designing websites, and therefore approach designing websites in the exact same manner you would approach designing a brochure.
Jeffrey Patch:
You have your set canvas size. So you’ve got an a four, a five piece of paper, letter size, poster, whatever it is you’re using, and then you fill that space. You create the design to fill that space, just fill that shape, and you do all your information design and it looks great. But you don’t think about the different device sizes. So we’ll often get designs and it will look beautiful at 1,400 pixels wide. It will be a perfect website. But the minute you start to resize anything, you know, you’re gonna get multiple length headings of kind of dropping onto a new line at different times, and it starts to look an absolute mess. So, yes, we get this a lot.
Jeffrey Patch:
The way we get around it is we do two things. We either ask for all the designs for mobile, for tablet and for desktop, which is super time intensive for them. And in fact, super and time intensive for us as well because that’s an awful lot of PSDs or whatever sketch files that we’ve gotta go ahead and check out and compare our designs to. Or we make an agreement with them where they give us the desktop version and they give us, say, the home page and a standard page treatment of the mobile environment of what they would expect the mobile to do. And then we have an agreement that we will make the decisions of the journey of those elements as they collapse down. So we’ll probably use a framework foundation bootstrap or something. So there’ll be some rules in place in there with regards to the order of the way things stack. But the agreement is therefore that we will, we will produce a, a standard stack, which is logical.
Jeffrey Patch:
There will be a couple of amend cycles to that stack. So the the agency can take a look at what we’ve done, give us a bit more feedback. We’ll make a few more changes, and then give us another round of amends, and then they pay for anything else on top of that. So that means that they don’t have to do every single PSD for every single snap point you can possibly imagine and that we don’t have to code everything and compare everything and do our nothing opening multiple documents. So that’s usually the happy medium that we all get to, which means they get flexibility. We get flexibility as well, so we get to be a bit creative on how we do, the the structures, etcetera. And, obviously, everybody kinda saves money. And if in most cases, we save a hell of a lot of time as well because I like to think the responsive decisions that we make and and yourself may make, are logical ones, and the client usually ends up happy anyway.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You said something that I had to write down because I’m gonna use it, and I hope that other, you know, freelancers or agencies or who whomever can use this too. But you said logical choices or logical design. So I wrote down logical responsive design. And that’s something that I don’t use those words, but when I am talking to a client, I go, well, how’s it gonna look on mobile? And if I’m designing it to be honest, I don’t design a mobile page because I know the logical flow of responsive design now. And so I just you know, I tell them, hey. You let us worry about that, and when we get to that stage, we can we can, you know, readdress if there’s any issues. But we understand how the stuff should flow. We understand how it needs to be programmed and how it needs to be set up.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So we’ll go ahead and do the logical design of that, and then we can sit down and have a have a meeting afterwards and discuss if that’s really working well for you or if there’s any issues that we need to look at. So, yeah, you just you gave us some, some good insight there.
Jeffrey Patch:
That’s good. I mean, the only downsides to that is just that whatever you translate into mobile environment might be sacrilege to the designer who’s designed it because, again, I’m not sure what designers you deal with, but we tend to deal with a lot of designers who are very, very kind of brand aware. They’ve they’ve spent thousands, has been invested in creating a brand and creating a brand guideline and making sure that everything is perfect. So they feel like they need to have, the exact same sort of input at the kind of the mobile level as well to ensure that the treatment of the logo is is is the same. So we’ll that that’s why we always try and get at least the mobile version done. So tell us what the mobile header should look like, you know, and we’ll always send them examples as well of what they can do. But being able to treat the menu, especially if it’s gonna be like a slide out menu, having the right font sizes, etcetera, for the menu and the header, etcetera, it just saves us an awful lot of extra time arguing at the end. But we still end up having a few arguments, again, about header sizes or they feel that certain images you know, when you got, like, a grid of images and you’ve got, like, an image and then some text and then in one block and then another image block and then some more text than that.
Jeffrey Patch:
And they they they then start saying, well, actually, it should be this order, and you’re like, well, that doesn’t make any sense. Why would you do that? Isn’t that what you Yeah. So but, thankfully, we’ve got two revision rounds, kind of in included in that. So they’re allowed to say all that. And then by the third, we’re allowed to start invoicing, which is a nice arrangement.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s my favorite stage.
Jeffrey Patch:
Well, the the change control stage.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No. The invoicing stage. Oh, invoicing stage.
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s true. Well, let’s talk about that. Why why the hell not? You’re you’re an agency like me. The invoicing stage. How do you work? 50% upfront? 25252525? Or what do you do?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I always did 50% upfront, 50% when it went live, and I’ve changed that. But I still kinda I kinda I kinda change it depending on the project sometimes, which isn’t necessarily wise, but I I I just I do a lot of hand holding with clients sometimes, you know, and it just depends. But That
Jeffrey Patch:
must get a little bit open.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It does because it’s it gets romantic, you know, and then, yeah, they’re Are
Jeffrey Patch:
you holding my
Lee Matthew Jackson:
texting me late at night. Why are you calling my husband? I don’t know.
Jeffrey Patch:
I saw you holding my son.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I I well, I’m not gonna say what I warned you before we got on.
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, no. Okay. That was funny. DM me if you want a screenshot. Anyway, carry on.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Is that going on the, is that going online? I’m never gonna have a political career now.
Jeffrey Patch:
Don’t worry. I’m not gonna share it. What stay what stays on the WP Innovator podcast or even what he said stays on it and the thousands of visitors worldwide. Finish the
Lee Matthew Jackson:
sentence to you. I’ll send you your affiliate commission so you don’t hold it hostage.
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, that sounds good.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
What was I saying? Oh, the invoicing. Yeah. So now I’m starting to work with bigger budgets, and I realized that it’s really awkward to ask for, like, $10,000 upfront. And I’m I’m just not comfortable with that. And, and that may say more about me than, you know, than the project itself or the client. But so, you know, now I might do, you know, 40% upfront and then thirty and thirty at various stages. But I I kinda look at it at at a, you know, at the project at a whole and make a decision. But it’s in in between 25 to 50% upfront.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I have to get that upfront, and, I’m not comfortable if we don’t have that, you know, money in the bank before I start bringing on, you know, contractors or or buying software or anything like that. I’m just not because I’ve been burned. We all have. And, you know, so I definitely always start with something. But, and I just have to look at it and just see how this is gonna go. Is it a, you know, six month project? Is it something that we’re trying to get done in four to six weeks and, you know, make the adjustments there? But the, 50 to start and the 50 to go live, I I learned the hard way. It’s you might be waiting, like, two years sometimes. And, you know, it’s it may be your fault.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
It may not. Usually, it’s not. But you’re waiting for a website to go live for forever. And you say, is it ever going to? And and I’ve had some that they just disappeared. You know, it never even went live. You did your work. You let it sit in the development server for, you know, six months, and you’d finally get a callback from them. Oh, we decided to nix this entire business.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
We’re not gonna pay your final invoice. Bye. So that’s not fun.
Jeffrey Patch:
But to which, at that point, you call that guy that everyone knows. Everyone’s gonna get a friend called Dave
Lee Matthew Jackson:
who Dave, the lawyer?
Jeffrey Patch:
No. No. No. Who owns a baseball bat? And you’re like, mate. Right? Actually, I don’t have a friend call. I wish I had a friend call, Dave. On that then, here’s some advice. You may already started doing this, to be honest, because I I think it’s pretty much part of WP elevation.
Jeffrey Patch:
I learned this, like, three years ago when I did WP elevation back in the day. But one of the things to build into your contract is when you’re doing the the invoicing cycle as it were and and the agreement of of how much is paid at each stage, etcetera. What we do is when we’ve got the website built with fake lorem ipsum, that is the point that our final invoice goes to them and they pay it. They can freely spend two years if they want to entering content into that website and even paying hosting for the development site for two years. If it’s gonna take them that long, it’s totally fine. But as long as I’ve delivered everything that I said I’m gonna do in the in the briefing document, the final invoice goes, the lawyer letter follows if they don’t pay it within thirty days. Well, it’s actually fifteen days to be honest, but, you know, thirty days to give them a little bit of grace. If they’ve not paid it by then, that’s when it gets serious.
Jeffrey Patch:
Because we’ve done the work and we need to get paid, and it’s not our fault if they’re gonna spend months getting their act together to, you know, to put in the thing. So I don’t know if you start doing that, but that’s definitely covered in WPU Elevation. And we’re gonna have to let everyone know on the Facebook group the next time WPU Elevation is open because it’s a fantastic course. And he only Troy Dean and his team only open the doors every few months for, like, a week to have another, intake of students, etcetera. So, if you wanna join the Facebook group, wpnev.com/group, head in there. We will let you know as soon as the next opening is on offer. Deep.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Highly, highly recommend it. Highly, highly recommend it. I signed up, and, like, and this is almost a year ago. And a couple weeks in, I think I got, like, an email from Troy or something. He’s like, hey. Are you in California? And I don’t know who Troy is. You know? I mean, I know who he is, but I don’t know him personally. Like, why is he asking in California? Like, I’m gonna I’m gonna be in Hollywood for something.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
We’re gonna get a couple people for drinks. You’re like, wait. What? Like, what what kind of program can the owner just hit you up and say, I’m taking you out for drinks and, oh, by the way, I live, you know, two continents over. But I’m gonna be in your town, and and we’re gonna go out some beers. Ready? It’s like, what kind of service is that? That’s pretty cool.
Jeffrey Patch:
That’s pretty amazing. And and he had me at hello with his accent in Hawaii. Actually, that was awful. That was terrible. Sorry.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I forgot. He’s gonna kick you up for that.
Jeffrey Patch:
Sorry. Well, he can try unless he’s he’s gonna fly over to London or something and then and then No.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And kick you kick out at the elevation. I’m not saying he’s a violent man. Jeez.
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, okay. Well, that’d have been fun.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Hooligans in in The UK, is all you do? You just fight or something? Is that a Well, yeah. I’ve seen lock stock and two smoking barrels. I know what you guys are all about.
Jeffrey Patch:
Well, no. I mean, if you think back to the old duels as well that we used to have, you know, 10 paces turn, shoot. You know? The one not dead is the winner. We invented that sort of thing.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, you can’t say we. You’re Canadian. Right?
Jeffrey Patch:
That’s actually kind of true. Yeah. I I
Lee Matthew Jackson:
am kind of true as well.
Jeffrey Patch:
Well yeah. What, are you Canadian as well?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
My my mom was born there, and then I moved there. She moved when she was a kid. But, oddly enough, when my parents divorced when I was a kid, my dad moved to Canada. So I’ve been back and forth. But I’m I’m a California boy, born and bred.
Jeffrey Patch:
Born and bred. What what just off topic. What do you love the most about California?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
The weather.
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, okay.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I I can’t. I I travel a lot for, for one of my projects and and just for fun. And, I mean, there’s great places all over this world. I’ve been all over. California is where it’s at. It’s expensive. It’s depressing trying to make a living here, but, oh, man. When it’s, you know, 75, 80 five degrees and you got an ocean breeze, that’s the best.
Jeffrey Patch:
But you’re not you’re kind of selling it and not selling it at the same time.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, I’m being honest. You know? Trust me.
Jeffrey Patch:
But I I guess you have to experience it to know it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. Then that’s the thing. Well, honestly, I just I try to give people on my honest opinion and my honest opinions. I’m conflicted about living here, I guess, is what we just unpacked. Now who’s now who’s on the therapy couch?
Jeffrey Patch:
Yeah. I just choked up my drink. There’s nothing. Alright. So to wrap this up, there are some final questions or a final question that I have. So we’ve unpacked your journey. We know how you got into development, which is amazing. Development then design.
Jeffrey Patch:
It’s an interesting journey. Exactly the same journey as me, learn how to build on tripod and GeoCities and then kind of morphed into design and so on. We’ve learned about your businesses, about, creating processes so that you can streamline things and be more efficient. You’re offering your white label services that allow you then, you know, with these processes to be efficient, to make it profitable, but also to allow you to create relationships as well. We’ve also talked about things like invoicing and, you know, how to to structure those better. We’ve also picked up WP elevation. Why the hell not? My last question, therefore, is before we say adieu, is, you are an online agency. Are your clients predominantly local, or are they global? And then the next question to tag on to the end of that is how do you generate leads and get new clients?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s a good question. It’s a mix of both, but I for our for our full website projects now, most of them are local or somewhat local, and most of them come just from word-of-mouth, just from my own personal network and, these like, I’m getting referrals from people I went to high school with. I’d like I haven’t I just moved back to my high school town, but, you know, people I haven’t seen for twenty years. And that’s just part of Facebook and just networking and being vocal about what you do and who you help, and then they just kinda come. And, you know, I could do more if I put more lead generation stuff out there. But, but I’m pretty happy with the way they flow in, and and I like having that kind of personal connection too. That creates a different relationship. For whatever reason, a lot of our clients are a little more on the low tech side.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So it’s kinda nice when they are local or semi local, and you can pop into the office and sit down and have a training session and and things like that. But then on the flip side, our agency, you know, or I should say the agencies we work with, they’re from all over, you know, all all over the all over The US, all over the world. And and that’s cool because it just creates that, you know, huge network from from the entire planet that you didn’t even know you had. You know? Creates new friends, creates new relationships, and and new opportunities every day.
Jeffrey Patch:
I think as well, the the beauty of the Internet is we found so many new suppliers as well, which has been amazing. Not just clients, but they just the ability to have people, working on projects with us or give us amazing advice, and we paid for consultancy from even people who joined the Facebook group. Shall we plug it again? Just for the hell of it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I think I’ve played it,
Jeffrey Patch:
like, eight times.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
If somebody listens to this podcast and you’re not in the WP innovator group, what the heck is wrong with
Jeffrey Patch:
you? Just join in one
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Unsubscribe this podcast. You don’t belong. I’m just
Lee Matthew Jackson:
gonna No.
Jeffrey Patch:
That’s terrible. Don’t say stuff like that. You’re shy.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You you gotta get harsh to get some of those final people to subscribe or else they’re not gonna
Jeffrey Patch:
do it. Isn’t that like guilt bait or something? Like, you know, you have the click bait, haven’t you? And then there’s, like, guilt bait, isn’t there, or something like that as well to making people join something or click something or buy something because I don’t know.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, let’s
Jeffrey Patch:
let’s talk more about
Lee Matthew Jackson:
my childhood. I don’t mean
Jeffrey Patch:
You know what, sir? Let’s talk
Lee Matthew Jackson:
more about my childhood, shall we?
Jeffrey Patch:
Let’s not because, I don’t know if I can handle it. Mate, you’re a legend. You’ve gotta come on again because I’ve really enjoyed just chatting. Like, I love this style of podcast. This is this is my jam. I love it. This is great. So come back on again soon.
Jeffrey Patch:
So before we let you go, please can you let us know how we can get in touch with you?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
The best place is probably Facebook. You can find me Jeffrey Patch, j e f f e r y. You can follow, Maintain Press and Doozy Creative. And I also is it okay to plug my group?
Jeffrey Patch:
Yes. Because I plugged mine eight times.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, yeah. But I don’t wanna step on your toes. I’m also running the digital agency profits Facebook group. So you can, you can go to maintain.press/group, and it will take you there.
Jeffrey Patch:
Cool. Am I not a member of that group?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I don’t think you are.
Jeffrey Patch:
That’s shocking. Well, I’m I’ve just asked anyway. Well, mate, thanks for that, guys. Head on over Facebook tap in digital agency profits. You will find Jeffrey’s group that looks like an amazing place to be. Couldn’t believe that I wasn’t in it, but I’m now a part of it, which is great. And so I’m sorry, mate. Well, I hope you’re you’re gonna approve.
Jeffrey Patch:
Yeah. And then, obviously, check out maintain.press and doozy creative. All of the links are gonna be in the show notes. Jeffrey is a legend. Jeffrey, you are a legend. You’re a good mate as well. I really appreciate your time. We would definitely have you once.
Jeffrey Patch:
Let’s sort something out. We’ll set some sort of topic. We’ll drink coffee or whatever, and then we’ll shoot the breeze on that soon. Have an amazing evening, mate, or day or Any Don’t know what time it
Lee Matthew Jackson:
is. Thank you. It’s about 01:00. Thank you. This is great. And, yeah, I’d love to do this again. I’d love to maybe flip the tables on you one day and have you on as something, as a guest that’s some new content we’re working on. And, we’ll be chatting about WP elevation stuff because are you going through all the all the lessons again? You can do it all?
Jeffrey Patch:
Doing it all again. Actually, that’s a great idea. So, again, in episode 100, I said we’re gonna do a few things different for the next 100 episodes. So why don’t we have it where you host the show for, an an episode and interview me?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Dude, let’s do it.
Jeffrey Patch:
Let’s do it. Alright. You know the link. You’ve already got it. Set up another, a calendar appointment, and we will do this. And this, I am leaving recording so people know that in a few episodes’ time, Jeffrey is probably gonna be hosting the WP Innovator podcast and having a chat with me. I’m looking forward to it. This Alright.
Jeffrey Patch:
I don’t know what’s gonna happen. I’m a bit scared now, but let’s do it anyway. What the hell? Have have an epic afternoon, mate.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
See you.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
See you. What was that? See you.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I thought it sounded cool. Jesus, it’s a lot.
Jeffrey Patch:
Oh, sorry. I mean, yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No. God kidding. I’m
Jeffrey Patch:
That was well cool. I’m still recording. I’m totally leaving that one in the show.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, good.
Jeffrey Patch:
We should have done something like, love you. Love love you.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Kisses. You hang up first. Okay. Bye.
Jeffrey Patch:
And that wraps up episode number 105 in next week’s show. That’s 106 for those who haven’t quite worked it out. I had to count on my fingers to be honest to get to that next stage. But we’re gonna be talking with Frank Candy. He’s back again. The legend that is Frank Candy. We’re gonna be talking about public speaking and he drops some amazing advice, particularly around how to plan and build out an amazing public speaking gig. We even talk about Rolodexes, which is kind of retro and really, really cool.
Jeffrey Patch:
So tune in next week. That’s episode 106 of the WP Innovator podcast. Don’t forget we have a group, wpinnovator.com/group. That lives in Facebook. It’s freaking awesome. And also, I’ve been keeping a secret. I’m not gonna tell you the secret yet, but you need to be keeping your eye in that group because I’m gonna be doing a live stream in a few days to let everybody know what is going on, What I’ve been giggling about this time. So head on over to that Facebook group wpinnovator.com/group.
Jeffrey Patch:
I said that really fast. I’m getting good at that. It’s hundred and six episodes. And you think about say that fast, wouldn’t you, Larissa? Yeah. Cool. Larissa’s here as well. Hey. Hi, Larissa.
Jeffrey Patch:
No. That was me pretending to be Larissa. Sorry about that, Larissa. She looks really offended now because I made fun of her. Anyway, this is now the end of this episode, and you’ll probably hear me in the next episode. But if you do wanna talk to me before then, head on over to the wp innovative group on wpinnovator.com/group. No one actually mixed it up for us and sent us back in. Can’t remember which episode that was.
Jeffrey Patch:
Hey, if you’re actually this far and you’re a musician, write us a song. That would be amazing. Write a song about, I don’t know, the WP Innovative podcast. That’d be great. Why the hell not? I think I should probably stop now. It’s entirely up to Larissa how much of this actually gets in in the in the outro because I’m gonna hand it over to her now for editing. So if you get this far that means she just left it all in like a badass. Oh yeah.
Jeffrey Patch:
Alright. Anyway, see you next week episode 106. Toodles.
