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Verbatim text
Lee:
Welcome to the Agency Trailblazer Podcast. And on today’s show, we’re talking with Jennifer Dopazo, the founder of Candelita, based in New York. She shares with us the importance of user experience, of wireframing, of product specking with regards to building a website, but also shares with us the importance of talking in a language that our clients can understand. This is an awesome episode, so sit back. relax, grab a notepad and pen and enjoy the ride. This podcast is brought to you by the Agency Trailblazer Community. Is agency life stressing you out? Then? It is our mission to help you build an agency that you love. We’ve created a community which includes the Agency Reset Roadmap that will allow you to get your agency back on the right track. We also have lots of noble, straight to the point, easy to consume workshops. We have a thriving community of other agency owners, and we all wrap up every month with a mastermind call with myself and sometimes a special guest where we unpack your questions.
Lee:
For more details, check out agencytrailblazer.com. Welcome to a conversation with me, Mr. Lee Jackson. And today we have on the show Jennifer Dopazo, founder of Candelita. How are you today?
Jennifer:
I’m good, I’m good. How are you?
Lee:
I’m doing great. We’re in England. We’re having very hot weather and it’s very fashionable to talk about the weather in England because it’s rare we get hot weather and I’m feeling grumpy.
Jennifer:
It’s pretty hot here in New York as well. And we always complain about the weather in New York.
Lee:
I think it’s the law in New York, actually. So I’ve been told. So I understand that your business, you develop brands and websites for entrepreneurs to help them level up. But rather than me trying to describe you and your business, the best person to do it would be you. So do you mind just sharing with us all about yourself? Maybe your favourite colour, maybe your favourite drink and also something about your business as well?
Jennifer:
Yes of course. So my favourite colour is purple, which has been something new for me in the past five years since I was all blues and all that. My favourite drink. I’m a wine person, so you’re always going to catch me with a glass of wine, either late at work or just like having, you know, conversations with clients or meetups. I’m really I really love it. And the whole idea about my company is when I came to the United States almost 11 years ago. Wow. Wow. I came from master’s degree on design and technology, which was basically putting sort of like in place these systems for user experience design that I was using anyway, and creating. But I didn’t know there was a career and a system for it. So I was coming from Venezuela, which I’m originally from, and I my background is branding and sort of like web, but, you know, web when it was just flash and interactive games and it was so much it was kind of like easy for a designer to jump into the web that way.
Jennifer:
Because, yes, let’s say like the platform was different, but like we could just translate our messages so quickly. So then with the whole user experience design sort of exploration that I got throughout my master’s degree, I started sort of like navigating both sides, right? So people were calling me to consult into UI, UX, and it was great because since I had the skills on design and I had this organisational way of like seeing how users can like, you know, use your app or go through your website or how it can just actually communicate with them, how to put your messaging and your brand in front of them. I feel like it gave me this even better set of tools to help clients understand how we can effectively put their businesses in front of the people they want to reach out to. And how do we just, like, create an experience that is going to allow them to say, yes, this is the business that I want to work with, or yes, this is the product I want to buy and just make the decision even better.
Jennifer:
So I kind of have like that mix of, you know, a graphic design editorial background that then moved into multimedia with flash and games and all that and sort of like diving into user experience. So now the way that I do it is that with my clients, some of them, they might need a redesign and then rebuild of websites and online platforms. Some of them they already come with, you know, let’s say like a, like a good branding to start with. So what we do is like reposition it or sort of like figure it out. If the way they’re positioned right now works with the people that want to talk to, or if the way they’re packaging their services or the way they’re presenting their products is the way that it’s the most effective for their audience. So that’s kind of what I do.
Lee:
That’s awesome. And UX is I think it’s something that I hate to say, but I think a lot of us as designers and web developers, etc., very often get bogged down with the features and the functionality, and we really do forget how important it is, that whole entire user experience. I’m very guilty of creating something that looks really beautiful. And then somebody says to me, and this has happened on the Angled Crown website, for example, how the heck do I search for the blog posts? And it only came to my attention two weeks ago, and I still haven’t rectified it right now. But we are giving absolutely no no functionality, no thought to how on earth somebody searches for a blog post. So I am really embarrassed considering as I have such a huge audience and I’ve forgotten to do something as basic as providing the search facility. What’s. Let’s talk about UX for a moment then. And what sort of conversation would you be having with a client, maybe in the context of a web build, especially around the areas of user experience, what sort of conversations would you initially be having with a client so that you understand what you need to be designing or laying out?
Jennifer:
So it all starts with creating the customer avatars, which I know it’s also like a trendy word and people are like, oh, I have my avatar down. And you’re like, do we? Let’s talk about it and really understand their needs. What we are offering, like, like all those different things and understanding, like, I even go into understanding how the days are, the structure and structure. Why? Because maybe this person is only researching things on a train, commuting from, I don’t know, Pennsylvania to the city or they actually drivers like all these little things. They actually matter. Once we go through that, I basically create this sort of like profile cards that they can always use then for marketing later, like, you know, giving them names and knowing what we’re building for Bob or for Lucy. But the idea is that once we do that, what the types of conversations that I’m going to have with them, it’s going to be based on how I can build the user journeys.
Jennifer:
So basically, I always explain to them, because I know UX is sort of like this really weird abstract concept, and I know this. It’s been, at least in the US, it’s very this high end sort of like service only for corporations and people, smaller businesses that work with other agencies. They might not go through the UX side of it, they go straight to design. So I try to explain to them, it’s like when you welcome someone home, like how do you show them things? You walk them through the living room that you show them, I don’t know, your looks out of the window. Like, imagine you’re like welcoming someone to your space and you’re trying to give them an idea of who you are and how can you offer them? When do you offer them a glass of water? When do you offer them something to eat? Is it date? Is it night? Like, I try to bring this metaphor so people can understand how websites or apps or anything that we’re building is not just this sort of like static, beautiful thing, but like how we can actually take advantage of it.
Jennifer:
And then we start having these conversations. And if I have them in front of me, or maybe sometimes over a video call, I’ll ask them to take post-its out and just write things of like even from purchasing. What happens after the purchase? You send an email. What happens after that? If they’re consultants or let’s say freelancers or coaches, like what happens if someone books you or I’m building a lot of membership sites right now? What how do we welcome these members? What do we offer them? So all these conversations is me asking a tonne of questions, but also sort of like asking them to put these things down. And I’m on my end. I’m just going to also be maybe creating like this flow. So once we have that flow very, very clear on both ends, it’s when I come in and say, well, these are the pages that we need to design because we know that they go with this flow, and then it’s so much easier to set up the main goals for each page and the calls to action for each page, because we already we already sort of like planning what we want the user to do.
Lee:
That’s phenomenal because it sounds very similar, or actually it sounds exactly the same as the process that I would go through with regards to writing out the product specifications. So we would map out all of the user journeys, and we would describe verbally in words or in paragraphs, and we kind of create it as a story with chapters, and we describe what each character is going to be doing throughout their journey. And we also map it out with multiple journeys because you’ll have multiple different characters doing multiple different things. Does that mean that when you’re doing the UX design, you’re you’re doing a combination of a specification document as well as visuals with regards to how or to what the user will see at those key points.
Jennifer:
Yeah, definitely. So at that point we will set up like those those key actions or features that we want the user to have access to. And then so there’s going to be a second level of like that, the same flow but built with wireframes. So instead of having just maybe the label, then I’m going to start adding the wireframes. So then the client is. They can see how you translate those intentions and those goals into something more visual. And these are very basic wireframes. They’re going to have a very low sort of like resolution. There’s like no colour. But we are going to have is the main goal and the main call to action. Once we go through it, review it with the client and sort of like review. What is the type of content, what are the things that we need to do? I also do like a sort of like content audit. Depending on the client, they might have all the content ready. Depending on them, we might have something new that they have to create.
Jennifer:
So that’s something that they can take and review with their teams or whatever they work with. So they can just get that for us. And once the wireframes are approved is when I basically, you know, we sit down and design the pages. It’s just now knowing that we have a specific goal and a specific call to action that we want the user to take. And it’s sort of like how we translate all those brand elements and just make them work for that, those pages that we need to design.
Lee:
I can’t stress enough how important wireframing is to the design process. It’s something that we’ve engaged with for many years. And thank you for sharing that and kind of describing the whole reasoning for it. We’ve had very often, maybe about 5 or 6 years ago, we would go straight into the design process and we’d forget about things like talking about the user journey and talking about what needs to be achieved. Because as designers, we were just excited to get stuck in. But then the major problem came when you then had to start changing designs to match, oh, we need to do this and oh, we need to do that. So all of these afterthoughts just meant for a very stressed design team who were having to either use Photoshop or whatever the application was, and it’s not quick to start relaying things out, especially if you have, you know, a change of word count, etc. because you want to present some completely different data in a specific area. So wireframing just cuts all of that out.
Lee:
And at what tool do you use to wireframe?
Jennifer:
I use sketch, and then I have a couple of tools that I can use. I have like one that is called like wireframe.io, which is really easy to just sort of set up these wireframes online. And I really like it if I want to get a little bit more fancy, I can just go to sketch. I have built a library already that I’ve been growing and growing and growing, and I can just drag symbols and just create a whole flow very easily. So it’s a mix depending on what the client needs. And I agree, like I sometimes, you know, clients also get a little bit nervous of like, oh we’re going to spend like these like three weeks or so. Like doing this process. We can why don’t we just go designing. And I keep telling them it’s this time we invest right now, it’s going to save us so much time at the end, and it’s going to make everything flow in a better way in the process. And it’s just so much easier.
Jennifer:
The project just becomes a breeze after that, because those few projects that I skipped UX, that part.
Lee:
Yeah, it.
Jennifer:
Was the same thing. It’s like this Photoshop file that you keep opening or sketch file that you keep opening, and it’s been like revision number 23. And it just becomes this one thing that you, you just kind of like resenting and be like, why are we going through this again? So yeah, that the process I that’s kind of like a no. You know, that’s my process and it’s like a non-negotiable on my side.
Lee:
That’s good. And the other good thing about it as well, if you’re not going to enter into like a full product spec with a client because some agencies don’t necessarily do that, they’ll take a brief, they’ll make kind of an estimate of how much development time might be needed, etc., but then things catch you by surprise. So going through that UX exercise actually potentially brings up features that weren’t even mentioned in the initial brief. Perhaps the client might be talking about how that feeds into a database which spits out a report, and at that point you can say to the client, hang on a second, none of the brief mentioned a report. So this is a change control, and we need to spec this out and make sure that we get added, you know, get that added. So it allows you to have that conversation really, really early on to avoid any unforeseen scope creep. That could be a bone of contention between you and the client. So that’s that is phenomenal. And I’d never really until you described your process.
Lee:
I have to admit I’d never really related the two together. You know, the functional spec as well as the user experience. And they are both like they both need each other.
Jennifer:
Yeah. I mean, all those documents are going to live in, in, you know, in our documentation and like either a developer, designer or anyone, the client, we can always go back and everything is there. Right? So it’s kind of like there’s no it’s so much harder to like, not understand what the goals are or what are the things that we need to build or what are the things that need to happen. And as you said, yeah, it’s great for scope creep. Like it’s there. Like if something comes up with a functionality that they’re just like, we just now need to like submit documents and you’re like, mm, let’s just review the wireframes because we that’s not here. It’s not even in the flow for the user. So yeah this kind of came out of it. So yeah, it’s really good documentation wise. I really like it because it’s so much easier to even if we have conversations of something that might the client might want and be like, mm, do we really need that?
Jennifer:
And we can just go back to initial documents and like review how it would affect what we have planned so far.
Lee:
Now for a lot of websites that we will be working on with clients, they’ve probably Already had a website for some time, and then they’ve approached us to do the redesign. So essentially we always seem to start those projects from scratch. But is there anything that we could perhaps be learning from past websites? So the site that they currently have, is there any way that we could potentially analyse that and see what is or isn’t working, etc., so that that can influence what you then design?
Jennifer:
These are great tools, so there’s different ways that I can do it. There’s a great tool that you can submit a website, and they basically pick a person to go through it and talk about it and see if they understand even what the business is about and what they’re supposed to do. That is a great way of showing clients being like, we’re not trying to sell you the idea of redesigning, but just because we want to, like there are needs here that need to be fulfilled. And the other the other part that I do is that I’ll just do like a very quick UX, sort of like audit or UI and like, and it’s just going to be going through pages identifying what seems to be the main goal and how this connects with what the user needs. So I’ll like reviewing these things and kind of like comment with the client on that side. It depends on the project, but I feel like for my clients at least, they see that more valuable than talking about more technical stuff or SEO or things that are just like, that’s like so down the road, I feel like having those conversations of like letting them understand how people come into their websites or their apps or trying to purchase their products.
Jennifer:
They might not be very clear on how to do things, or they might not find things that they need to find. That’s been an approach that it seems like clients kind of like, understand the value that is behind the websites that we build, right? Because that’s what we want. At the end of the day, we want to give them this amazing tool for their businesses. So I find that like when I don’t do when I don’t rely only on the tech side of it, but like more on the user and bring this like empathy and humanity to it and letting them know how this tool, which I love to say, like if you have a great website, it could be like the best salesperson for you, right? So how do we treat this? So this salesperson can just answer questions, give them the options like let it, let like walk them through the whole process. That’s kind of like one thing that I do and like map out things sometimes. They have so many complex websites because they have so many pages that have been created through the years, and when you map it out and put it in front of them, they’re like, oh no, it’s like this, this reality of like, oh yes, it’s a mess.
Jennifer:
We know what do we do with it? So it’s just sort of like showing them that it’s fine, you know, like it’s I keep telling them like because websites are organic and we keep changing and editing and that’s the beauty of it. We also tend to keep adding tools to the toolbox, but we never clean it. So we need to sort of like sort it out, clean it out and see how many hammers we have, how many things of each we have. So we can just decide if we need one or if we need any of them at all. So it’s kind of like a process that I’ve seen that it helped them using this, this tool user experience that you submit a website and they give you a review. And just going through as, as a person and also UX or like knows how to like translate these goals into a website, into like showing them maybe what are the things that could be improved.
Lee:
So that’s a tool that you can run on their existing website before you enter into the kind of the process of the rebuild, presumably that allows you as well to work out what is working. So things that you don’t want to change because it’s, you know, certain things do work, not everything is always wrong. And that’s something that you can then carry on because you’ve already got maybe 2 or 3 years worth of website data. And apparently that page works really well. And loads of people click on that particular call to action. So that may be something that you guys can keep. What’s the tool. Sorry that you mentioned.
Jennifer:
It’s called user experience the website. And you basically you submit your link and they have a group a staff of people that they just basically I love it because they’re going to go in and first of all, they’re going to see it, try to figure it out what the business is about. And then they’re going to be like talking through the experience. I think it’s like between 2 to 5 minutes depending on the video, and they’re going to be talking with the screen and they’re going to be like, okay, I need to search. What’s the search bar? Or I have a client that they’re just like architectural boutique agency. And I send it to them. And the person who was going through the website, she thought it was a financial sort of advisor company because of the name and the image, like the images that we’re using. So it was kind of like this reality check of having people that they’re not familiar with your business get that like ten second test, right? Like, what is this business about?
Jennifer:
What am I supposed to do? What is this? Like, do I buy products? Do I book you? So yeah. So it’s a really I love that tool. It’s so much fun.
Lee:
Is it? I think it might be the one usertesting.com that one.
Jennifer:
Yes.
Lee:
Perfect. I did a quick Google whilst you were talking. I hope you didn’t mind. I wasn’t being rude, but I know I have to check this tool. I remember the tool from a little while back because it’s one of the. It’s one of those tools that’s kind of a play field leveller. That’s what I love about the internet, is the fact that there are so many services out there that are actually, you know, low cost and allow people, you know, smaller agencies to utilise the power of user testing. Whereas in the olden days, maybe ten, 15 years ago, you might have had to have paid a company to give you this sort of information. Democratisation of the internet, allowing so many people to do these exciting things. I just think it’s cool. So that’s usertesting.com and using it on an existing client website before even designing a new one is a brilliant idea because it shows what the problems are as well as what works. And then obviously you can use it again on the new site that you’ve developed and also then obviously monitor that.
Lee:
Now with regards to things like one thing that I’m very, very passionate about is return on investment. So understanding has my new website achieved goals, etc. that I’ve set, you know, kind of tracking that, etc. I remember reading a blog on your website about the return on investment. How do you guys set client expectations and then measure the return on investment and and measure success for the new site that you’ve built a client or the new design that you’ve implemented.
Jennifer:
So there are like different levels that we measure success, right? It’s going to be not only data or even revenue, right. That is coming through the site. But also I like to see of things that they don’t consider as we’re very bad at celebrating things when it’s about ourselves. But also like has your business been able to scale because of this building? How are you spending your time? Because some of them, they might come and have a website that it was so much work to manage that they couldn’t even focus in growing their businesses. Right. So we have all these like different verticals of things that I like to check in with them. So it’s like, how are we doing? Like financially. Right. Like how are the sales going up? Are you bookings going up? Are your reservations going up depending on your business then like other campaigns that we’re building, you know, like visitors and tracking and all those like Google Analytics and things that we use and we love to like sort of report back on then it’s kind of like how the website is performing, if they have membership sites or if they have shops, like how many abandoned carts we got?
Jennifer:
Like how many? What is the churn of the members? Are they like signing off? Why are they doing that? Like like different things of like how we can measure that. And then it’s just like you as a team and a business owner, how are things going? Is this actually being that tool that is giving you back that time that you didn’t know you wanted? But it’s great because now you can focus on other things and actually grow your business. And you don’t have this like website that it’s not allowing you to do that. So it’s a mix of I try to stay away from only giving tech stuff to my clients. If you have noticed already, I love to bring these conversations that we know are important. They’re data driven and they’re there, but like sort of like put them in a context of the user and also the business as how it’s been affected.
Lee:
I like where you’re going with this. It seems clear to me that you like to be able to talk in a language that clients will understand whilst covering some really, really important topics. So you and me, if I was to say brand narrative, you know what I’m talking about. If I was to say user experience, you know what I’m talking about, return on investment, all that sort of stuff. But a lot of clients don’t really talk in those particular buzzwords, but they are important conversations to have. Even talking about the avatar right at the very beginning and understand, you know, what is the site about. It’s surprising. We all know this in a web space. And if you are an online entrepreneur, you’re very often know this. But if you’re a local business, I find there is a massive language barrier with local businesses, particularly who are not that exposed to the web and don’t read as many books that you or I might read and don’t have a clue what I’m talking about.
Lee:
When I start saying all of these things, something that is very important to agencies is branding, and agencies will produce a beautiful brand and want the client to not butcher that brand and to follow some guidelines, etc.. But how do you explain in plain English, I guess, the importance of the brand that you are designing? And how do you have those sorts of conversations with the client to get them on board, to get them help you define and develop that brand with them, and how do you get them to kind of honour what it is that you’ve created without them trying to push back because they like a particular colour.
Jennifer:
A particular comment?
Jennifer:
Well, the first thing is that it’s not only about you, it’s also about the people you want to reach out to. Which I know it’s really hard because I know there’s this whole idea of like, branding yourself, and I get it. But also, who do you want to reach out to? What are your goals again? Are we selling? Are we booking your restaurant? Are we booking your consultant? You know, like, what are we doing? Who are we talking to? Which generation we’re talking to. And then, like, the whole idea of branding is that it’s not only that. Let’s revisit the colour that you like, but also how do we sound, how approachable you want to be. Um, how do you want people to see you or react to the things that you put out there? So it’s kind of like all these different things that through design and then a website, we’re able to translate and sort of like elevate that message. I tell them design is just that amazing tool that allows us to elevate what you want to say.
Jennifer:
I’m kind of like, amplify it and just be able to reach out to more people because the more clear we are and the more you know your messaging is, is consistent. People are just going to be like, ah, I know that person. I’ve seen them around. And, you know, like this whole idea of like a brand has to be like in front of people certain certain amount of times before they recognise it and trust it. So it’s this idea of how we need to consider not only the things that you like, but also what your audience that you’re trying to reach out, that segment, how they react to those things. Because we really need to like maybe there’s a gap of generations, maybe there is a cultural gap, maybe you like red, but for some countries it’s a colour that you don’t use. So it’s like, how do we navigate and basically negotiate what you think is your brand standing for and what you know, your audience will resonate with?
Lee:
The beautiful thing about doing what you’re saying, which is talking about the end user who is going to be consuming or who’s who is to be attracted by that content is is that you take your opinion and the client’s opinion out of the equation because you can both talk objectively, hopefully about about the user, the end user, the target, the avatar, etc. and that does make those conversations a heck of a lot easier. I absolutely agree, and what I’m seeing throughout everything you’re talking about is the real importance of communication, of conversations. It sounds like you do have a lot of conversations with your clients to make sure that you are giving them and delivering everything that you can possibly do, and I honestly find that really, really inspiring. There are temptations for me, especially to just create quick tick box forms or, you know, to try and expedite that process, but it’s never with any success. I think, you know, conversation is key. Having those conversations, having those communications. And I assume your clients absolutely love you for it.
Jennifer:
Well, and that’s something that I really um, so for me, the first month of working with a client is that when that relationship is built, it’s that relationship of trust. Some of them, you know, we understand our processes. We know how things work. Clients don’t, and they don’t have to. They don’t have to know what the process of a design or development or marketing or whatever it is that you do is right. So I see it as my job, also as being transparent. They need to know what we’re going through. What are we going to work through and opening that channel of communication. And this doesn’t mean that I’m like having thousands of emails in my inbox hitting every day because they’re having questions or like I’m spending all day in, you know, in a phone call or something like that. It’s with, you know, through asana that I use that we can have these conversations and sort of like setting these like catch up meetings as well. But one thing that I found out is that because I can build that relationship soon enough, first of all, they’re going to be better clients because they know that they’re being very well taken care of, that you care and that there’s this level of just let’s just change that blue and you’re going to be like, but why?
Jennifer:
So when they come with these ideas, I’m going to be like, okay, why, how is this going to benefit it? And they always keep laughing because they’re like, I know. They’re like, now that I’m going to ask you for something, I already imagined you in my head being like, how is it going to benefit the user? And sometimes that even, like, makes me not ask that question and, like, try to figure it out by myself. And it’s like this. Sort of like I see that we end up being. We could be friends at the end. It’s like this relationship that we we tend to close up together. We’re part of their businesses for this time. Right. So I feel like communication since day one and having, you know, being open, having your systems as much as you, you can share your process, your systems, like the reasons why you’re doing this, this specific process that you have the better is going to be. That really has worked for me very well.
Lee:
I love the idea of your clients thinking, what would Jennifer do?
Jennifer:
Oh, that sounds great.
Jennifer:
Now let me just be the devil’s advocate, okay? How’s it even going to benefit? And they’re like, oh, always. Because that’s the thing. I’m not going to go rush and be like, oh, they want it blue. Let me just go change it Blue.
Lee:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
And it’s not because I don’t want to change it. Blue because whatever. But it’s just idea of let’s think through the decisions we’re making. And also because I don’t want to set that habit in my clients, that they can just wake up with an idea and be like, no, I want it pink. Yes, go change everything and we all run and do it. It’s just like, no, I mean, let’s talk about it. Let’s, you know, let’s talk about it and see if it’s really a need. Where did this come from? This idea. And then we start digging in. You can, like, identify all the things that might happen, but like, it’s the same thing, like when people come to you and need a website. Okay. Why why is it going to do for you? What do you need from it? I don’t know. I’ve been I’ve been known for being asking a lot of questions, but they they happy with it at the end.
Lee:
Well, they’re happy with it.
Lee:
And it’s absolutely essential to ask those questions, isn’t it. Because if you don’t like you said you will be in revision 20 plus. Yes, because sometimes it’s just a whim. One of the pieces of advice I often give to people as well is when you receive a round of amends, actually wait 24 hours before you even read them necessarily. If you’ve got that, if you’re not in any particular rush on a particular job, because that allows the client to also think of any other stuff, because they very often think of a load more. Yes. But equally it then gives you some time to then come back to them and say, all right, well, for this group of amends, Y What purpose does that serve, etc. and then it means that, you know, people are thinking again about that process, about that, the end user and being very careful, having careful consideration about what they’re doing. But it also gives you, as the designer, doesn’t it, that breathing space take 24 hours so that you’re not reacting and therefore making rash decisions based on this huge new list of amends.
Lee:
And then you can then come at it in a lot calmer position. I kid you not. We once had a revision 99, in my old agency, and I hang my head in shame. I mean, I wasn’t involved in that, but I owned the agency, so that was my, you know, that’s on me for not looking after my team properly and allowing it to get to a revision 99, which is insane. Now I am intrigued. Something I love to ask agency owners because we all do this in very different ways. You’re up in New York, how do you generate leads for your business?
Jennifer:
So I have a couple of ways, you know, of course, going back to your clients and just sort of like asking them, right? Be like, hey, is there anyone I kind of like always go like, is there anyone you already know me. Work with me and maybe have, like, a sort of like, description of like, does anyone you think that would benefit from, like, working with us? That’s why we’re doing it. I’ve been great. I’ve been having a lot of luck with having, like, word of mouth referrals, which is also very lazy, I know.
Lee:
But good.
Jennifer:
But good. But also, if you want to have more control, right, you need to kind of like step up, you know, writing, being guest, you know, other podcasts like the same way that I’m doing right now that your audience will will hear to. I give workshops, I do like very small like classes here in New York. So that has helped because it’s kind of like a way of showing them, you know, the work that goes behind it and how some of them, they might be really ready to just like step up and do it. And I also have a podcast where I basically interview creative entrepreneurs. And some people just like really resonate with the conversations. And then because we start kind of like being friends or something like that, they come back at me and just become clients at the end.
Lee:
That is awesome. Yeah, you are right. With regards to the recommendation, you do lack the control, but things like education are essential, I absolutely agree. Now New York, are you like in the centre of New York or are you more in the outskirts?
Jennifer:
I live in Manhattan. Yeah.
Lee:
Okay. So. Right. Manhattan. So I’m now thinking of Home Alone two. Where is that in relation to anything on Home Alone two?
Jennifer:
Well, home alone two. He was staying at the plaza, which is by Central Park.
Jennifer:
Okay, so I am downtown.
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Lee:
You’re downtown.
Jennifer:
Okay. Close enough and close enough.
Lee:
So where are the coolest locations that you’ve had? Client meetings in New York. Because you are so lucky to be there.
Jennifer:
So I have an amazing client that I love, these two girls who run a sex shop in Brooklyn. And we tend to meet in cocktail bars or hotel bars because we found out that it’s normally kind of like chill. You know, people are there, like if they’re having meetings, it’s very chill, it’s very organised, and it’s just like this nice space. I feel like if you if you can have meetings in nice spaces like that and take it outside of the store or the office or the regular, you know, kind of like stale spaces. Things just flow very well. So I, I love that. And then there’s one museum right here where I live, which is beautiful and like super chill and it’s all about like Tibet and all that, that some clients love. And we go there and have a cup of tea and just chat. So I try to find places like that, museums or hotel lobbies that are like very nice and, you know, or cocktail bars if they’re into that.
Lee:
When you said everything just flows and you mentioned the cocktail bar, I was going to say that perhaps that might have something to do with the cocktails. But no, I do. I do agree being outside of the office environment, being outside of the office environment is so helpful.
Jennifer:
Like breakfast, you know, like sometimes we do like a breakfast meeting at a hotel that is like, you know, nice. And it’s known for having like good breakfast and just sort of like set up that mood of like, let’s have this conversation while we’re just having breakfast. And, you know, it really changes the also the disposition of the client as well.
Lee:
Yeah. And for you, where do you work best? Do you work from home or do you have coworking space?
Jennifer:
I have a coworking space and I also work from home, so in the mornings I am a member of a female only coworking space called The Wing here in New York. So I call it my laptop time because you don’t have like set spaces. So I bring my laptop. That’s the time when I’m going to do emails, follow ups or anything that it’s not design related. I love designing on my desktop computer and then, you know, after lunch, taking a break, maybe just going to the gym, just come back home and sort of I have a standing desk, which is the best thing that I’ve done in a long time. And then just like focus on that sort of like design time. And I find that that breaking my day into two spaces and also like the type of work that I do, it makes me it has made me really, really productive.
Lee:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
And I’ve found out that I can do things like even half the time that I would normally be if I’m sitting here all day long at the same location, I don’t know, there’s something about it that it just makes me be maybe more focussed and be like, I’m going to put two hours on this and get it done, and then have lunch and then do that, and it’s just having my day structured around that. It’s great. I really think it’s it’s important for us to, you know, create those habits of having the time to eat your lunch, do your workout, take your nap, whatever your thing is, just put it around, around your calendar and just be very respectful to it. Not like clients have meetings at that time. You know, like really, I think that has also changed the way that I work. Be very respectful of my own time.
Lee:
I’m being respectful of your own time. What recommendations do you have for switching off? Because as a business owner, I know for me, I am so tempted to still be thinking about my business at 9:00 at night. What’s what’s your secret weapon for switching off and chilling out at that time?
Jennifer:
Either I’m going to be at an event, but my coworking space is going to host, which is great. It’s a great of switching off. Just take a walk. Like, I don’t know, like I go out, take a walk if it’s a like a very hot like summer night, maybe just stay home and watch a movie or just read that book that is not business related. That’s the thing that I stopped doing reading business books at night. That is just awful because my brain wouldn’t, you know, I wouldn’t even have dreams about this book or things that I should be doing that I’m not doing. So just like things that really kind of like disconnect me from it. Like I have this, this thing that I tell my partner and even my friends. I’m like, once the computer is off, shop is closed. Like, that’s it. Like my email. I don’t have push notifications on my phone for emails or slack or anything like that. So it’s it’s sort of like really setting those like not do not let apps come to you after a certain time, do not check email.
Jennifer:
Or if you do sort of like, you know, do you have to like always like be very mindful of that. But I think it’s just like getting out of the environment. Like if you work from home, maybe take a walk or maybe, I don’t know, just go to the movies or take a walk around and sort of like have a conversation with the person in the coffee shop downstairs, and it’s just going to be different.
Lee:
You are selling the dream. Do you have Netflix by any chance?
Jennifer:
I do.
Jennifer:
I love Netflix at night.
Lee:
Top recommendation. And then we will wrap up the show.
Jennifer:
Oh, wow. So there’s this Spanish show that I really loved that it’s in Spanish. It’s called La Casa de papel, which is basically I think it’s the heist in English. It’s basically this, like, amazing robbery to a bank of a bunch of guys dressed up with masks. That show has been great. Yeah, I’m.
Lee:
Gonna have to check that out because I know they do the English subtitles anyway, so I know literally. Well, actually, no, I know Hola.
Lee:
It’s about it. Well, they do have the audio.
Jennifer:
In English if you need to. So it’s just going to be voiceovers.
Jennifer:
You don’t have to be lazy.
Lee:
Oh amazing.
Jennifer:
Yes. You don’t have to read. I don’t have to learn an entire language. Yeah.
Lee:
Oh, it’s been so great to meet you. I’ve really, really enjoyed it. Shout out to the wing. I listened to a podcast with one of the co-founders of that really, really inspiring story. And they’ve got locations around the around the US, San Francisco, New York, etc., Washington DC. I love their branding. Their attention to detail on that website is phenomenal. The fonts, everything on there. The photography as well. So for anyone who loves to geek out on design, go check out the wing. That’s the hyphen. Wing dotcom also there. Go and check out their story because that’s a really, really inspiring company. And I’m a I’m a huge fan obviously. Jennifer you are awesome as well. I’ve really enjoyed learning from you, learning how you value communication above all things with your clients. And through that communication you create projects that everybody knows where they stand and you make great friends with your clients. I love the cocktail bar idea. I’m totally going to take my clients to a cocktail bar from now on, so thank you for that.
Lee:
And finally, thank you as well for the Netflix recommendation, because I’ve literally just finished and I was looking for something else to watch. I had nothing to do with this podcast, but I figured, you’re American. I think 99% of all Americans are on Netflix, so there must be a recommendation. So thank you very much for your time. What are the best ways for people to connect with you? And then we shall bid you adieu.
Jennifer:
Yeah. Well, you can connect with me over Twitter, Jennifer Lopez, Jennifer Paso or. Yeah, I don’t know, the regular places Instagram on my website candylicious.
Lee:
Nice one. Thank you so much for your time and have a wonderful evening. What are you up to tonight?
Jennifer:
Well, I’m actually gonna have this another event with this local politician at the wing that I’m super excited to go and meet and see how I can support her.
Lee:
Awesome. You literally have a cool life.
Speaker 3
Well, the good thing is.
Jennifer:
I’m a member of a place that is bringing all these opportunities to me. So it’s also very awesome. It’s great not to be able to do that work and find that out. So just like you can just just go and show up and that’s basically what I’m doing. I’m just showing up.
Lee:
Love it. Have fun. Take care. And thanks for being on the show.
Jennifer:
Thank you for having me.
Lee:
Bye.
Lee:
That wraps up today’s show. If you got value from this episode, then please be sure to let me know. Head on over to iTunes and leave us a review there. Or if you use a different application and there is the ability to rate this show, then please do share your wonderful five star opinions and you will have my eternal gratitude as you support this show. Be sure to join our free Facebook group that is over on agency trailblazer.com/group where you can hang with the cool kids. Talking design, talking branding, talking web development, talking geek, talking Netflix episodes because they’re all so important. And also finally sharing animated GIFs which are guaranteed, well, not kind of backed by any financial guarantee, but at least guaranteed to put a smile on your face. Probably so. Have a great day and we’ll see you in the next episode.
