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Verbatim text
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Hi, and welcome to episode number 112 of the Agency Trailblazer podcast. This is your host, Lee. And on today’s show, we’re gonna be talking with Imogen Allen. Now, she started off as a VA and then eventually pivoted into the world of WordPress and online website development. And we’re gonna cover a whole wide range of subjects including things like outsourcing, including being paid to learn things by your clients. We do a name drop of the amazing content snare product, and then we also do a bit of a deep dive into hiring a VA, what you should be looking for, and how you should be treating that virtual assistant. So this episode is absolutely packed with awesomeness, and through the art of technology and clever editing, I’m actually back after about taking an hour off from this introduction. Just had chicken, carrots, we had sweet potato, mashed it up with some butter which was so good,
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Welcome to a conversation with me, mister Lee Jackson, and Imogen Allen. How are you today?
Imogen Allen:
I’m very well. Thank you. And how are you, Lee?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, we just had a conversation about this, didn’t we? I’m I’m I’m actually nervous. You mentioned you were a little bit nervous because Yeah. You know, this was a podcast that I said, hey, do you mind jumping on in a couple of hours? So you’re completely unprepared. You’re like, I’m a bit nervously. And I said, well, you know what? A hundred episodes in and I am actually still nervous myself. I get the heart beating and everything going on. So I’m a nervous wreck in a short answer to your question.
Imogen Allen:
I well, me too. But I think the more we talk, the better it will be. It’s a bit like, being on stage
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah.
Imogen Allen:
And you gotta have those little nerves before you step out there because you’ll do a great performance. That’s the theory.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s true. My dad, was a minister, and I asked him because he never seemed to be nervous. And I said, do you never get nervous when you’re preaching? And he says, every single week. And I was like, well, why? You’ve done it for, like, forty years. He says, yes, I know. But if you don’t get nervous before, it means that you don’t care. And I was
Imogen Allen:
like, oh, wow.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, I get it. Because he wants to do a good job. I wanna do a good job. But enough about me. This is about you. As people can tell, you have an English accent, so we’re all gonna assume you’re from England. But whereabouts do you hark?
Imogen Allen:
I am. I am based in sunny Staffordshire, which is kind of slap back in bang in the middle of The UK. And I live quite near, a lovely little city called Litchfield, which is, I believe, the smallest city in The UK because it has a cathedral. Wow. And I live on a farm, and I have chickens, cats, and children. And, my husband’s
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I like the order.
Imogen Allen:
Children love. Well, the chickens make love the most, so, you know, they’re great. I the chickens are great. They’re a great stress reliever because you just go out, they follow you around Mhmm. Like dogs follow you around, and, they’re only after you for your grain.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But Yeah.
Imogen Allen:
Yeah. They’re great fun. They’re a great stress reliever. So, they are good fun. They they have their own characters, believe it or not. So yeah. So here we are in kind of rural Staffordshire and, in the in farming community, really.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, I believe you’ve pretty much answered every single American stereotype of how was Brits live. You’re on a farm, you have chickens in the countryside, in a small city with a cathedral. You’ve just nailed it.
Imogen Allen:
I have not.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
If you have a tax cottage roof, that will be the final nail in the, in the stereotype.
Imogen Allen:
Can’t do the the roof, but we do have beams. Beams on the ceiling. Brown wooden beams on the ceiling.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So from when you said beams, and I was like, well, I don’t really understand. Oh, yes. Beams. Yes. Good old wooden beams.
Imogen Allen:
That’s right. Yes. Which is quite an interesting combination considering I’m into the tech. You couldn’t get a a more diverse, environment living in the rural, but then being really involved in the online community and the world of tech.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, talk to us about that because you are very technical. You’re using rural Internet connection. I’m pretty impressed already. And what what at what point did you start getting into the world of doing business online, and what was that business?
Imogen Allen:
Okay. Well, interestingly, I know that you know a little bit about my history and that I’ve progressed into the world of WordPress, starting out as a a VA. Mhmm. For those that don’t know what a VA is, it’s a virtual assistant. And two years ago, I set up a business, as a VA because I had before that, I’d doubled in textiles, and that was when I came into the world of online social media, how to use social media, what it actually is, what it does, all the different platforms, and trying to sell some of the things I was making. So that that was my first step into, tech as it were. Going back some years, I I come from a private banking background. And so when I started my first job with Cootes Private Bank in London back in the late eighties, we didn’t have computers.
Imogen Allen:
Well, we didn’t have ones on desk. They were great, big, huge things that churned out
Lee Matthew Jackson:
The mainframe.
Imogen Allen:
Kinda green paper.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah.
Imogen Allen:
So it it kind of it it has all these years kind of passed me by other than, you know, working in an environment where you gotta learn software to to get from a to b, working working in the banking industry. So this was a whole new field. So I wanted to do something that was, you know, have a professional career, but one that I was gonna create myself. So the virtual assistant industry is is really big. But, again, I didn’t wanna be pigeonholed into that, you know, admin kind of stuff because I I get a bit yawny when I think about admin. It’s not really my bag. So I looked into the tech side of things, came across WordPress, read about it, and decided that when I started this, I was gonna start building my own website right from the beginning. I have to say it was incredibly hard.
Imogen Allen:
It was very challenging. There was lots of tears, but I I was determined that I was gonna get to the end of it. And I did somehow, but it kind of lighted a fire. So I spent the next two years trying to work with other people who already had, you know, websites and WordPress and and basically learning on the job as well as doing things like, you know, Mailchimp integrations and all the kind of mechanical bits that go with running an online business, social media, doing things like that for people. So I I really went through the whole plethora of learning how all the elements fit together, for marketing, websites, and and and just I just had a huge pivot back in May. I I actually won, well, runner-up for the best VA of 02/2017.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
No worries.
Imogen Allen:
I know. I have I have a a trophy as well. No worries.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Well, this should be a video podcast. Then we could also show you.
Imogen Allen:
I could show you.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. And the chickens whilst you’re at it.
Imogen Allen:
Thing was that I think I did it to prove it to myself, and I I didn’t win because I don’t think my business was traditionally accepted in the VA industry. Whether that’s right or wrong, I don’t know. But it wasn’t really about winning for me. It was about the recognition, but it was also a a confirmation that I I needed to move on, and I needed to take my business somewhere else because whilst it was a a, you know, very supportive industry and I’ve met some fantastic contacts, it wasn’t for me. Mhmm. And sometimes, you know, you have to go through things, don’t you, to make a stepping stone to move to move up, to find out what you want to do because it’s not always obvious.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s true. I mean, for me, I was in IT for many, many years. I didn’t really like IT, but it was just a means to pay the bills. But during the whole process, like you, I had the opportunities to kind of deep dive into those skills I really wanted to learn. You know, the the companies I worked at needed websites and all sorts of stuff like that. So I got to be paid to learn, essentially. Yeah. It sounds like what you were doing.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
You’re you’re a virtual assistant. You’re adding value there, but at the same time, people were paying you to learn stuff that they didn’t have the time to learn. But, obviously, the advantage for you is not only do you then deliver it what it is that they need, but, obviously, you retain the information and the experience.
Imogen Allen:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think I think if you if you can feel the fear and and and do it and say yes sometimes to the things that you don’t think you have all the answers for or you don’t you kinda know the overview of how to get from a to b, but you don’t know the detail. It’s okay to say yes and and you should because I think if you don’t, you you don’t move forward. Yeah. And learning on the job, because it’s purposeful, I think you retain it better, you work at it better, and you get bit euphoric when you you nail it. So that that that’s always that’s always a real good boost. So, yeah, so that that’s what I spent that time doing, really.
Imogen Allen:
And then in May, May 2017, only last year, I decided that I was going I I really wanted to focus down on web design and incredible impostor syndrome, but I was really, really driven by what I wanted to achieve. So I set out from then, so between May and the end of the year, what I do, my focus, what I’m doing currently, what’s on my desk Yeah. Is totally, totally, totally changed. But I’m so driven to do it because I really want it. So I think when you find passion, when you find something that really knocks you fire and makes you get out of bed, then you will do what you need to do to to get there. And I think on the way, you know, I learned lots of things. I self development about, saying no to things and building up that kind of confidence to say no to things because I’ve made the mistake of saying yes to things because that’s that’s the only way you learn is to make the mistakes.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I
Imogen Allen:
think one of the biggest pieces of advice that I could ever give anybody is if you if you make a mistake, it’s only a mistake if you don’t learn from it. So if you continue to learn from those mistakes, to not make those ones again, then that’s a success in itself.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. That’s so good. Feel the Fear is one of my favorite books. Have you is the one feel feel the fear and do it anyway? Yes. Have you read that book?
Imogen Allen:
Yes. That’s the one. And and I I live by that every single day because it’s a bit like doing the podcast where we spoke earlier about being nervous. I feel a little bit like that every day because I think, like you say, you you have to do it to move on. If you want to stay in the comfort zone, you won’t achieve the things perhaps you want to.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah.
Imogen Allen:
And, you know, for some people, staying in what they know, staying in the comfort zone is absolutely fine. There’s no right or wrong because, it’s it’s, yeah, it’s down to the individual. So that might suit somebody to be in that that zone. But if they are, they’re probably not gonna be doing what what we’re doing.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mhmm.
Imogen Allen:
And and every everybody’s different in life. So, it’s horses for courses, isn’t it?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s true. I mean, yes. Some people are quite happy, to do do one thing, and they’ve established their life and a routine that they really like. And there is totally nothing wrong with that. In fact, I sometimes envy that because my head is so up and down sometimes. I’m like, you know what? That sounds really attractive right now, you know? Yeah. Watch the same TV program every evening and, go to the same pub on a Friday night. It does actually sound rather idyllic.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
On some
Imogen Allen:
on some days, yeah. But not not but generally, yeah. You would do it for five minutes, but you’d be itching itching to to move on.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But I think that’s that’s because we’re all wired slightly slightly different, aren’t we? That’s it’s probably a good thing for I always tell my daughter because my daughter’s like, oh, do we have to do that? So boring. And I said, yeah. But isn’t it a good job we don’t all like the same things? Because life would be absolutely boring if we all just showed up at the same places, watched the same movie, and everything else like that. It’d just be there’d be no variety.
Imogen Allen:
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So it it it is. And I think I think one of the other biggest, lessons that I learned is to surround yourself with like minded people.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mhmm.
Imogen Allen:
I think it takes a bit of finding, and I’ve definitely had that journey in the last six months. And I, you know, I think that it’s a case of sometimes putting your hand up, helping people, just being genuine genuinely yourself to, you know, not to try and be somebody that you’re not, but be yourself. Because after time, when you’re consistent, it will show through, and people will notice. And I think that the WordPress community I found is incredibly supportive. And, I have to say that I think the biggest change for me was actually joining James Rose’s group
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah.
Imogen Allen:
Grow your web design business. And I was a real fan quite I think it was one of my fur very first projects, and I came across ContentSnet and decided to to try it out and was in the group and, was getting a a lot of great advice. And so after a while, do you know, as you do, you people get to know him, whatever. And the end result was that James was coming to, UK. He lives in Australia. He was coming to The UK for the Youpreneur event, last November. So he was doing a bit of a wistled up U U UK tour. And so, I said, well, let’s do the IRL in real life meeting, which we we did, and he kinda put it out there if anyone’s gonna be in Birmingham.
Imogen Allen:
So, I went down to Birmingham, met him, and, I’m not sure. You might need to count how many times this person’s names come up in the podcast, the lovely Paul Lacey.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Few times.
Imogen Allen:
Was there. So so I didn’t know I I didn’t know Paul, and, but I met him that night. And that meeting changed so much for me. And, definitely, I think meeting, talking with like minded people, sharing, helping, just takes you on that journey. And I know that I’ve already found that since I’ve been in the agency Trailblazer, your fantastic new program, that that is the mindset of people that are involved in that that program because you can there’s nothing better than having that support around you and being able to ask sometimes what might seem a silly question, but it really isn’t because, you know, no question should be a silly question. And just having that support from other people who understand what you might be going through, all the challenges that you face, and just the the sense of giving in the in the community, you know, in your group, you know, that it’s the camaraderie is amazing. And it’s not you don’t find it everywhere. So when you do find it, it really stands out.
Imogen Allen:
So so meeting, James and Paul, and then working with Dave Foy and some of the, other guys. I can’t think of everyone off the top of my head now, but, you know, it’s all kind of interlinked. And, somebody said to me the other day, I’m a WP rock star, but I’m not really sure where that’s come from because I kinda feel I’m little old me, which I kinda suppose I need to work on that. But, I think we all get that sense of, imposter syndrome
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah.
Imogen Allen:
And we just have to make her voice a bit louder to to drown that one out, don’t we?
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Absolutely. And and, you you you are a rock star. We’re we’re all rock stars, I think. Isn’t that that’s what, Troy Dean and the and the guy started, didn’t they? They’re rock stars. But there’s Absolutely. There’s that impostor syndrome. Even me launching Trailblazer, you know, there’s the impostor syndrome. And, I I think I mentioned the other day, didn’t I, that we got that, hate mail, someone comparing me to Troy Dean.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And, obviously, I explained, well, I’m I’m not the size of Troy Dean. I don’t have the Yeah. Level of income, etcetera. But they were saying, who are you, mister Yes. To do what you’re doing? And, that kinda can can, if you let it, feed that imposter syndrome. Yeah. But, I just shut the hater down, and we all sang Taylor Swift for the rest of the day as a woman. And it it
Imogen Allen:
is really difficult. You but you just you do have to it’s very easy for us to pick up on that one negative out of the other 99 that aren’t.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That’s a good point.
Imogen Allen:
And and, you know, I don’t know why. I think humans are just wired that way. And, yeah, just to kind of delete and move on because you don’t need to justify yourself or, you know, you are being you. So and talking of yeah. Yeah. I was just We
Lee Matthew Jackson:
are, we are wired sorry. On on the whole wired thing, we we’re definitely wired for the negative because we focus in on that. And if you just think of all the positivity that you have had over time, so whatever you’re working on and if you’re feeling down because one client’s been mean, just go and, like, go and suck all the energy out of all those amazing comments you’ve had in the past just to pump yourself up because our brains just go straight for the negative.
Imogen Allen:
Oh, absolutely.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Train our brains. If someone’s got any advice, you need to get on the podcast.
Imogen Allen:
Yeah. Definitely. That would be that’d be a really great topic because I think we’re we all go through that. And, and I and that’s going back to the community that finding the right communities to be able to say those things as well just gives you that support just to to quieten those voices. And, we all are individual, aren’t we? So we can’t compare ourselves to anybody else. And, but it’s a difficult skill, I think, to just be okay with being you. And that that also goes into content creation because I always struggled with that in finding a voice and felt that felt invisible. Mhmm.
Imogen Allen:
And I think you just have to be comfortable in your own skin, and just go for it. Absolutely. The more you do it, the easier it gets. So So you’ll
Lee Matthew Jackson:
pivot, for your your VA and you’re finding through that that you really enjoy the website of things, you know, the online marketing, the building of sites, the maintenance, all of those things. And that that’s you realize that’s what excites you. Was it the was it that you got into the community and as a result of being in the community, you felt that you had the, energy enough to then go ahead and pivot, or did you pivot first and start to learn teach yourself and then found the community? Which way around was it?
Imogen Allen:
I decided to pivot first Yeah. Before I found the community, because I knew it was there somewhere.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mhmm.
Imogen Allen:
But I I I there were people that had kind of touched me on the way that I thought, oh, you know, maybe maybe it’s it’s there or it’s them or through them or Mhmm. Around them. And it wasn’t. And, you know, it was just bit by bit putting yourself putting myself forward really for things or speaking to people, striking up conversations. Yeah. And and then I I I think when I found, you know, James’s group, I’d I’d already made the pivot. I’d already started to redesign, my website and and change the emphasis from VA. And then I found Troy Dean, going back to him and the WP Elevation, and it wasn’t open at the time.
Imogen Allen:
So I I I knew that that was a community I needed to to belong to.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mhmm.
Imogen Allen:
And so I joined that in October, I think it was. The program opened October, November
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mhmm.
Imogen Allen:
And joined that. And that has has elevated me for sure, and given me the tools and the processes and the confidence. And, you know, because I think the thing is as well that I have you know, you sometimes you have to give yourself a pat on the back and realize that, you know, I’m of a certain age that I have a lot of experience of life and business and work and corporate world and whatever behind me. And so there’s elements that may not be so secure in in on the technical ability, but there’s other things that I can bring to the table. So I think you have to credit yourself with, all the strengths that you have that kinda go into your part. And, definitely, WP Elevation has, been an absolute pivot for me. And and, of course, that’s how we’ve met. So Yeah.
Imogen Allen:
And I I was really determined and driven so much so that I put everything into that course, and I actually, did end up with some one to one coaching with Troy, which was amazing. So I’ve had an amazing opportunity to to to kinda take on board that one to one advice. And, yeah. So just through hard work, really, and just being determined. And it’s it’s not always easy to keep keep on top of it, but I think it’s so much easier when you have a passion for it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. WP Elevation is such a great place, to be a part of. We’ve been members. I I joined about four years ago, when it was, quite early days and started the course then. But we’ve now got, Larissa in there as well. And, the the the information in there is awesome, but also they’ve got that great Facebook community as well. And you were talking about being able to go to a place where you can ask the question no matter how how silly you may feel that question is. Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And there’s no such thing as a silly question because everyone’s got to start somewhere. Yeah. And you can’t know everything. It’s impossible. And WP Elevation is definitely one of those really good safe spaces. So if you’ve never heard of WP WP Elevation, wpelevation.com, it’s not open at the moment, but they put out amazing content. They’ve got a great podcast specifically on WordPress business as well. So that’s fantastic, which is all free and be sure to sign up for their email list to to let for them to let you know when they’re open because, you know, peep people, think that maybe I’m starting a WP Elevation as well.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Agency Trailblazer is for people who are doing agencies who want to change some things in their agencies. It really is separate. We are going to continue to promote Troy Dean and WP Elevation because we think they are freaking awesome. And you have it from Imogen as well.
Imogen Allen:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean
Lee Matthew Jackson:
is so nice. It’s ridiculous. Yeah. It should be illegal, really.
Imogen Allen:
Absolutely. And they are very different spaces,
Lee Matthew Jackson:
you
Imogen Allen:
know, just to make that clear.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And
Imogen Allen:
I I think I think that I think it did, I think the sense of community, say, in WP Innovation, as well that there are that, you know, there are groups out there where you couldn’t ask the silly question without being shouted down Mhmm. By, I don’t know. They just don’t have the right feel. You don’t feel that you can ask a really basic question without somebody thinking, well, shouldn’t you know that? Or
Lee Matthew Jackson:
or doing the let me Google that for you link, which is just really annoying.
Imogen Allen:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And the and the thing is, it’s all about being supportive, isn’t it? And I think you just have to take your time and find those communities that work for you. And, I’ll be doing my first work camp this year too. So work at London in April. I believe a few of the trailblazers are gonna be there too.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Everyone’s already talking about it. I’m hoping my application to be a speaker gets approved. That would be freaking awesome. That
Imogen Allen:
would be amazing. Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yeah. Yes. And if it doesn’t, I’ll just I’ll just quietly cry.
Imogen Allen:
I have every confidence
Lee Matthew Jackson:
that And then I’ll just, like, go and pitch up in a pub around the corner and say, I’m doing a workshop on
Imogen Allen:
So, yeah, I think it’s gonna be great, and I’m sure you’ll will you’ll be up there speaking, with the others too. It’ll be it’ll be amazing. So it’ll be great, again, to meet everybody in real life, because I think that’s that’s the thing about the community is it’s all there online, and you can be anywhere in the world. Mhmm. And it makes the world a small place.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
If you can get to events as well, folks, then, you know, every time I’ve gone to an event, I’ve ended up with, an awful lot of business as well. You know, I yes. I we we end up with the friends in the community, which is actually invaluable and amazing. But I usually end up as well finding suppliers and getting business at the same time. It’s an amazing place to network as well, and it’s often a thing I think people forget or kind of put low down on the list. They don’t realize how good for business going to these events are. Like I said, you find suppliers, you find people to do joint ventures with, partner with, and even clients as well. Even though you don’t necessarily go for that, I think Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Through the friendships and everything and and the situations that you’re in and the information that you both share that you all share with each other, it just becomes a natural conclusion. It’s almost like ten years of networking at a local breakfast networking on steroids. Uh-huh. You all go and you’re in this place where everybody’s energized and, you know, just looking for how they can help each other. Because that’s where everyone goes to these sorts of places where everyone’s there to go and help everyone else.
Imogen Allen:
Yes. So,
Lee Matthew Jackson:
therefore, somehow through kind of the law of, I don’t know, karma and whatever other laws there are going on, you end up benefiting as well, which is always amazing.
Imogen Allen:
Yeah. It it is. And I think that the networking is, I always struggle with it in a way because I think it it you are limited. If you do local networking, you are limited to, the kinds of people that locally attend the different types that are around. And I I always find that I would, you know, rather be somewhere with like minded people, and that’s really difficult. I found that particularly where I live. I don’t know whether it’s just probably me or whether it’s local, but I haven’t really found anything that really works for me locally, and I’ve tried different things. So, this really excites me going to work camp because and and the kind of the networking within the WP community because it’s a sense of belonging.
Imogen Allen:
And and you know that people are there for the same reasons you are. Like, you’ve just gone over you know, people are there to help, to talk, to kind of, share innovations, partnerships, whatever, because we all have the same purpose. So it feels again, it’s another it’s a safe it’s a safe environment, isn’t
Lee Matthew Jackson:
it? Absolutely.
Imogen Allen:
So, yeah, I’m not I’m not really, kind of, standing you know, sitting around the table and giving my sixty seconds. I’m not very good at that. It doesn’t come naturally to me.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
I’ve done that for years. And it is it it can be, if done right, really super successful. But nothing has ever trumps, you know, like, one or two day events and hanging around with just amazing, like like minded people. So if you’ve not registered yet, I will try and make sure I remember to put in a link into the show notes for London word the WordCamp. So that would be amazing to see everybody there, and to and to support WordPress in The UK. Now, I have this burning question. I’m not known when to say it, but I would love to know kind of like six months ago, you were doing VA Yeah. Work.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And you’re now focused very much in the web space. I’d love to know like, on a normal kind of Monday morning, what sort of tasks were you doing, say, a year ago versus what sort of tasks are you now doing, with your pivot?
Imogen Allen:
Oh, crikey. I was doing things like social media scheduling
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mhmm.
Imogen Allen:
Mailchimp kind of newsletters as that was the terminology then rather than the kind of email marketing, and having a mark talking about marketing strategies and things like that. So it’s kind of a a big jump. I would write blogs for other people, and, you know, upload content into a website, whatever kind of website. I’ve worked on quite a few different non WordPress just to to to kind of put the content in there for them. Yeah. Do you know what? My mind’s blank. I can’t think what I used to do. But it Well,
Lee Matthew Jackson:
it’s probably a good thing. It’s history now. But but it’s a that’s a very good idea. You are basically doing day to day tasks for other people’s websites. You were serve serving them. Yeah. And it
Imogen Allen:
was all time driven. So it was all time timed tasks. So work working for your time is such a horrible model.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Oh, absolutely.
Imogen Allen:
And and the thing, I’ve always been quite an organized person and think like, to think I’m fairly efficient.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mhmm.
Imogen Allen:
So that’s detrimental if you are good at what you do because you’re doing these things a lot quicker. So, yeah, it it it was it’s definitely a world apart from from where I am now. And where I am now is today. I’m just looking through, somebody’s, all their different current web hosting arrangements because I’m just about to start design and building a new website for it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Awesome. And that that is a massive difference. You are doing time timed stuff. So and you the the I think what I wanted to kind of get to the bottom of was was you are probably doing a whole lot of lots of different things all of the time. Yes. And you like you said, you are trading time for money, which is actually, for me, one of the most demoting vating things I ever do. Yeah. And now you’re doing something alternatively where you’re saying, and now we’re doing this one thing, which is building a site.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Obviously, there’s lots of things involved in that, but Yeah. You’re no longer being timed, you’re no longer on a deadline. The amount of time you spend something on something no longer is the way that people measure the value of what you do. Now it’s a, here is this, you know, here is this one lump sum. We’re going to produce something of value for you, and it will be done over several weeks. It’s not something that you’re panicking over, and it’s certainly not something that, you know, you you you have been broken down to the, you know, the lowest common denominator, which is Yeah. Did you spend fifteen minutes on this? Because I’m only gonna pay you fifteen minutes
Imogen Allen:
for it. Yeah. Exactly. And micromanagement, was was often not necessarily for me, but in the VA industry in general, micromanagement’s a really difficult, thing to have to handle sometimes. But, you know, again, you you you you go through it and you learn and grow so that you are more in control of of of you know, you you’re working with the with the other business person rather than for them. And I think that’s also the the space of of having being that assistant. You know, just the word assistant just gives that impression. Yeah.
Imogen Allen:
So, yeah, that was that was a push to to kind of come out from that kind of tag
Lee Matthew Jackson:
as well. Warn you about this next question.
Imogen Allen:
Oh, gosh.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And and all of my questions always have a motive because I’m always going off in some random direction Okay. My brains come up with. But now hiring a VA is something that a lot of the leading speakers are telling us we should have, you know, we should outsource the work that we’re doing. We should outsource, to VAs, etcetera. So from somebody who has been in that lifestyle and who’s understood the pressures and the stress that you’ve gone through, is there any advice you could give to us when we’re all looking out for VAs? Number one, I guess, is what sort of things we could outsource to a VA or to a third party because sometimes we can’t even think of what the hell that would be. But also, I guess, how how to treat a VA as well. Because I think a lot of us just throw something at them and expect them to do it within five minutes. Yeah.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And we accidentally psychologically devalue what they do because it is time for many. So Yeah. If there’s any tips, any advice you could throw at us from someone who’s been there, that would be awesome.
Imogen Allen:
Yeah. It’s it’s really difficult. And I think there’s lots of different interpretations of what a a VA is, and there’s lots of different types of VA. So, you know, you can have a VA who’s based in The UK, and you can have a VA who’s based in The Philippines.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Mhmm.
Imogen Allen:
And, you know, they are two very, very different prospects. I think I I think having been a VA, I would always like to feel I was part of a team Mhmm. Rather than, being somebody that was just outsourced to. Yeah. And so the it it, you know, it does come down to the business owner as well because they have to be good at management. Mhmm.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
But
Imogen Allen:
it it and depending on personality types, it can be easy to micromanage without meaning to. I I think that if you if the VA understands or knows the bigger picture as well, that you will find that they possibly are more proactive, as well rather than giving minute tasks. It depends what your objectives objectives are because it you know, so say, for example, if you if you had a VA that was just putting together some PDF documents for you or something like that, then, you know, if they kind of have a good background of what that’s working for in the big scheme of things, it can give them a bit more knowledge to to to be proactive and and really assist you rather than just doing task a tick, task b tick. I I think it’s it’s also very difficult to you you have to be in a position where you have the time to give to the VA you take on in the in the beginning. Mhmm. If if you if you invest the time, and I think you need to have good processes, then you will have half the problems. Because it’s easy for you to know what you need to do and what you need to achieve and when you need to achieve it by, but have you actually told the VA that? Yeah. And I think so communication is really vital.
Imogen Allen:
And I think if you if you give if you invest the time to make the processes work, in the long run, it will serve you better rather than and also managing expectations. Just as you work with a client, I always make sure that I manage those expectations right from the beginning, and I’m upfront about what what what I will do or won’t do or how this works and when I’m when I’m gonna update you and all things like that. So just apply that principle to a VA because they’re not they’re not mind readers. Yeah. You know, they they don’t they don’t know what to expect unless you tell them. And I think it’s it’s about finding the right person that kinda works with you just as you would find you would wanna work with the kinds of clients you like to work with when you have a VA. You need to find that VA in the same way that you have that rapport with and and that, you know, you can have a trial period. Perhaps have some just start small.
Imogen Allen:
Don’t think, right. I’ve got a shed load of things on my desk, and I need a VA to do it all. That is the not not gonna be a helpful approach. Yeah. Just wing it all over to them. Start small. So a few things. And then just gradually, as you get to know each other, as they do a bit more for you, you know what they’re capable of.
Imogen Allen:
It will soon soon become clear whether, a, they’re the right person for you, and, you know, it’s gonna work out, and then just increase it bit by bit and see where that takes you. But, yeah, don’t try and micromanage, but small steps and always outsource the things you really don’t like first because that will make you feel so much better thinking, oh, great. I haven’t gotta do that, Excel spreadsheet update this week because the VA is going to do it or I don’t need to do, what, you know, the do put some copy into your email, for you at your email provider and set that all up for you. You know, just small things like that that can so processes, start small, start with the things you don’t like.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
That is such good advice. You took that way further than I even thought we were gonna go. We we could quite easily now make an ebook and a checklist out of this and everything. You know? This this is like deep dive with imaging and hiring the best VA. But, I think several things you said really resonated with me. Obviously, there’s the starting small because I’ve hired VAs in the past and I’ve totally made the mistake of being stressed out at the time and throwing absolutely everything at them, which set them up for failure and made up for an absolute nightmare. Yeah. And then on the on the, kind of the the person side, are they a good fit? We all have a culture within our businesses.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
So we’ve all got kind of a rapport. Me and Larissa have, good banter. Me and Karthik have good banter. We’ve got this kind of joint, rapport with each other. And if you do hire someone who doesn’t have that, so they, you know, again, they’re just they’re just quietly sitting outside of what you are up to with getting the work done. And they’re not really gonna feel very valued or part of the team. So getting them involved in that culture. And that culture is very much a part of your brand as well, isn’t it? I think a lot of people, for our brand, know of me, but they also know of my team and they also see us online, etcetera.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Yes. So making sure that your VA actually feels like a part of that team. And I would even go as far as to say that, maybe, and you may disagree with me here, but I we’re looking for a VA at the moment. And I’m trying to look at setting some things that they can do, but not actually then putting a time for them, but actually agreeing some sort of retainer arrangement where they’re gonna get this, you know, so much amount of money per month. Yeah. And if they do less work that month, it doesn’t matter. They’re still gonna get the same pay because if I didn’t get if I wasn’t organized enough to get my stuff together to get it over to them, it doesn’t matter. That way, they’re getting a bit of stability as well.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And hopefully, I might build up a little bit more, loyalty or that feeling of, you know, I am a part of something special rather than I’m just here to put stuff into a spreadsheet. I don’t know what your thoughts on that might be.
Imogen Allen:
Absolutely. That would be the way that might that would have been my ideal VA client. Yeah. Yeah. Retainer
Lee Matthew Jackson:
stop though now, haven’t you?
Imogen Allen:
Yeah. So you’ve got, like, the retainer basis because, they because the thing is as well, when you’re if you’re working on a an ad hoc basis, so you might have a client that you do a bit for this month, that month trading for your time, and it’s really demoralizing. And, you kind of want the opportunity. One, to you feel that there’s that commitment, from both parties. And, it might means you to get your shizzle together every month to make sure you’re making use of the time because, if you don’t, then that’s that VA is gonna set aside because that’s what that as a VA, that’s what you want. You want to be able to set aside every month that dedicated time, and that’s what you’re paying for on a retainer. And it’s not, how much per hour times the hours. It’s a bit more than that because you are you are setting aside that time, that dedicated time for working with that client.
Imogen Allen:
So, yeah, I think that’s definitely the way to go. And, I think if, other business owners would have that mindset that you have, then, you know, they would perhaps have more success with VAs.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Absolutely. Well, I we’ve lit we’ve covered everything, haven’t we? We’ve covered being a part of a community. We’ve covered, the the networking. We’ve also now covered as well hiring the ideal VA, and everything. So this has been fun. I love having podcast episodes where there is no no real kind of necessary plan other than to unpack your journey and learn from it. And we’ve learned community. We’ve learned, valuing people.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
We’ve learned, establishing a culture within our business, and also how to onboard, the ideal VA and how to set up that relationship. So I’m sure Thanks. Everyone listening will agree, freaking brilliant episode and a wonderful image. And thank you so much for your time. How can people connect with you before we go?
Imogen Allen:
I am on the usual places. Although, I used to be on more places on social media. I am now really concentrating on LinkedIn this year. That is my, platform to be. I am on there, but not I’m a little bit quiet, so that’s where I’m gonna be heading. I am also on Facebook and Twitter as well, and you can find me at umbrelladigitalmedia.co.uk as well. Umbrelladigitalmedia.co.uk. That’s it.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
If you find me all your links, I will get all of the links in the show notes. Image doesn’t bite. She is a wonderful human and, will be very kind and feel free to reach out, I’m sure, dare I say, on your behalf.
Imogen Allen:
Thank you so much. Well, thank you so much for inviting me to be, on your podcast. And I’m really very, very happy to be in your community, both on WP Innovator and the agency Trailblazer.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And I’m happy that I’ve met you. I’m very thankful to Paul and to James for introducing us. You are a a legend.
Imogen Allen:
Thank you.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And I I know I say that to a lot, but a lot of people, but it seems to and I’ve said this a few times now. It feels like our community, you know, WordPress, the WordPress community especially is just absolutely full of really nice people. It is. So it’s it’s almost devaluing the word legend and I’m gonna have to find an even better word than that because there’s so many legends inside the community. It’s wonderful.
Imogen Allen:
That’s fantastic. Great thing to be a part of.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
Exactly. Have a wonderful afternoon. Thanks so much for your time.
Imogen Allen:
Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye.
Lee Matthew Jackson:
And that wraps up the episode. Don’t forget if you are not a member of the new agency trailblazer community, then the special founder member offer expires at the January. That is GMT time. So if you wanna become a trailblazer with the low cost founder rate, then head on over to agencytrailblazer.com. Thank you so much for your support.
