73 - Execution is Everything

Note: This transcript was auto generated then some poor soul sat and listened to it, and followed through correcting any mistakes they spotted. Please however expect human error and shout if you spot an issue. Email: lee [fancy curly symbol] trailblazer.fm.

Verbatim text

Lee:
Welcome to the WP Innovator Podcast, the podcast for web designers and design agencies, exploring the world of WordPress and online business. And now your host, Lee Jackson.
Lee:
Hi, and welcome to episode number 73 of the WP Innovator Podcast. And today, we’re just going to kind of just join a conversation that me and Troy were having on Skype. So there’s no real introduction. It’s just us chatting, having a great time. And we also get to ask a whole ton of your questions from the Facebook group. And if you’re not a part of that Facebook group, head on over now, anglecrown.com forward slash. I really think I should just use WPInnovator.com domain name. Do you reckon? Probably. Send me a message. What do you think? Do you think we should actually just put everything on WPInnovator.com to make it easier rather than having it on my agency’s website? I think it’s like, oh, there’s a good traffic. I don’t know. This is a great question. Anglecrown.com forward slash group. Let’s talk about that. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride.
Troy:
I’ll burn my eyes out, but at least you’ll be able to see me. Oh, yeah. Look at you, handsome devil. Actually, do we have a WP Elevation jacket in the wardrobe? Sorry, dude. I might just do a costume change. I’m wearing a Rockstar Empire jacket. Oh, you’ve got something on underneath there, haven’t you? Otherwise, do it off camera. Hang on. That’s a medium. No, that won’t. That won’t. I might just take the jacket off and just go black shirt. How’s that? Like you got the memo.
Lee:
Yeah, I did. I got the memo. Yeah, you’re the black shirt memo. It’s a standard issue. Standard issue, isn’t it?
Troy:
It’s May the 4th, isn’t it? So, Star Wars Day. May the 4th. That’s exactly right. May the 4th to be with you all. How you doing, brother? What’s going on? You’ve been crook, mate. I’ve seen you being unwell. Is that right?
Lee:
Yeah, for about a month. I had an issue with my… Well, we didn’t know what it was, and what happened was there was… We found out eventually that there’s an angled wisdom tooth, which is really funny because I’ve called my business Agle Crown, so we didn’t know, you know. Somehow I must have known.
Troy:
That’s a self-fulfilling prophecy, man.
Lee:
It was, yeah. And then it’s kind of growing diagonally or something like that, or going out diagonally, and it’s hit a major nerve or something. Trigeminal something. But they thought it was like, at first we weren’t sure, is he having a heart attack? Because it was like producing pain in my left arm and on the left of my face. Is this a heart attack or a stroke? I was like, what the… Oh, I was freaking out. And then eventually he went to the dentist because I was like, they’re like, oh, maybe I’ve got them, but they don’t know because it’s weird. And I was in agony. It was like someone was sticking a knife in the side of my face and that. And like my wife will test them. I was literally curled up in a ball sometimes in the middle of the night, like for hours. Oh, dude. Somebody kill me. This is, I hate this is awful. Anyway, the dentist then just said, I ignore everything you’ve been told. And she showed me a picture of this like diagonal angled wisdom tooth. It was hilarious. She said, what’s happened? It’s been moving its way up and on its way. It’s done something. I was like, okay. So it’s still a bit tender, but it’s not anywhere near as it was. I’ve just got to wait for it to come up, man.
Troy:
Oh, and then they pop it out. Once it’s broken, the skin, they pop it out. Don’t tell me, don’t tell me, don’t tell me. I’ve had mine out, dude. I have my wisdom teeth out.
Lee:
And you lived. Look at that.
Troy:
Yeah. And I lived. And in fact, I remember the dentist that took them out. He had his hand like that on, like on my chest, right? So I’m in the chair and it was just like a local anesthetic. And he had his hand on my chest and a thing in my mouth. And he was pushing my chest down and pulling this thing. Oh my gosh. And basically what they do is they crack the tooth down into little chunks that they can then pull out. They don’t pull it out clean. You know, we may have to reschedule. I’m about to faint.
Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. But you know, the thing is, they’ve only got to do it once. By the way, just, just in the list of things to say to encourage people when they’ve yet to have the tooth out. That probably wasn’t it. Just letting you know. No, anyway, carry on with the story.
Troy:
I’m a survivor. You will survive. I have every place in you. I’m a survivor.
Lee:
It’s good to see you. I was trying to work out. I was trying to work out. Have we done a call like this before? Haven’t we? Was that on your podcast or was it on mine?
Troy:
It was. It was on my podcast, WP Innovator. I think it was episode three.
Lee:
There we go. I think you’re right.
Troy:
I don’t know. I’m going to have to check this out now because it’s going to bug me otherwise.
Lee:
We should just trade. So our podcast has had a bit of a birthday and we’ve now actually got five hosts, including myself.
Troy:
Yes.
Lee:
And we’re doing it in seasons. I think we do 11-week seasons. And we’re currently planning our schedule for season two. So I should get you – the point is I should get you on our podcast. Once we’ve done this, in a week or so, I should get you back on our podcast.
Troy:
I would absolutely love that. It would be a privilege. Oh, it was episode five, not episode three. So episode three. And we talked about building a better WordPress business with Troy Dean back on the 27th of December. Well, it wasn’t then. We recorded it before that. 2015. My gosh.
Lee:
Wow.
Troy:
I was back when I had a full head of hair and everything.
Lee:
What happened?
Troy:
I started a podcast.
Lee:
Awesome. What sort of microphone are you using, by the way?
Troy:
Funnel.
Lee:
Yeah, I have – this is literally it. I bought the book the other day. By the way, I hit record ages ago because this is a great conversation. So if there’s anything private that you’ve just said, I’ll scrap it out.
Troy:
Not at all. I’m happy to publish it all, including the bit about the wisdom tooth.
Lee:
That was hilarious. But the – what was I saying? Oh, I bought Russell Brunson’s ClickFunnel books because I am a self-confessed. I’ve started the podcast just because I love doing what I do and I kind of have no strategy. And I’ve slowly been learning from all of the guests that I’m an idiot and that I probably need to start learning this stuff. But I see these 12-year-old kids doing these funnel things and I get really annoyed by it. And now I’m finally like, oh, okay, maybe it works because some of these 12-year-old kids are really rich now. And perhaps I need to actually be doing my business some favors. So right now I’m in the early stages of learning all about that sort of stuff.
Troy:
Awesome.
Lee:
Of which you’re probably going to tell me that you’ve got like courses on this or something like that.
Troy:
Man, look, I have – you know, it is remarkable how much we know in this business just because we’ve been – and I don’t say that to brag. But just because we have hired every consultant just about on the planet.
Lee:
Yeah.
Troy:
And every time they come in and work with us, we give them a schooling on how to do marketing automation. And we look at each other and go, why are we hiring these guys? Like we’ve been doing this for – you know, in earnest for about eight years now. And, you know, we’ve learned a shit ton. And every time we hire someone, we’re like, yes, they’re going to come in and they’re going to do this whiz-bangery. And they come in and we’re like, really? Like we’ve been doing that for three years.
Lee:
I probably already know it as well because I watch and consume all the content all the time. And I get it. I can even – like someone asked me what it was the other day. I was like describing things and I was actually advising some other business that I was in a business meeting with. And I spouted off about sending them down funnels and all sorts of stuff like that. I know it all. It’s just I haven’t applied it to my own business.
Troy:
That sucks. Yeah. And I’ll tell you now that execution is everything, man. You can understand this stuff and you can know the theory. And I’ve worked with a lot of consultants who get the theory but they just haven’t executed as much as we have. And execution, you’ll learn – it’s like when I was – I did a bit of boxing when I was a teenager. And I never really got in the ring because I was, frankly, too scared of getting the shit kicked out of me. But I did a lot of training on the bags and on the pads. And my trainer said to me once, you will learn more getting in the ring for three minutes than you will learn hitting the pads for three years. And that’s how I feel about marketing. You know, you’ll learn more executing one campaign than you will studying, you know, 100 campaigns.
Lee:
I think that’s the podcast title, Execution is Key.
Troy:
Absolutely. Is that what you just said?
Lee:
Yeah. Yeah, execution is everything. Every key – there you go. Execution is everything. Hey, Larissa. Execution is everything. She’s now going to write that down because I was forgotten by about five minutes. Also, for people who aren’t aware, this man is drinking beer like a true Oz.
Troy:
Thanks, buddy. That’s correct. I am. It is 6.08 p.m. on Thursday evening here. And we’ve had a very successful day, a very frustrating week technologically. But ultimately, it’s been very rewarding. We’ve had some major breakthroughs, which I’m happy to talk about. And so I am celebrating with an amber ale beverage, Little Creatures Pale Ale from Western Australia. It’s lovely.
Lee:
I did ask before, what microphone are you using?
Troy:
I’ve got the ATR-2100. ATR-2100. I did have the Blue Yeti, but it was so sensitive that if the neighbor farted, it would pick it up. So I was like, yeah, forget that.
Lee:
I heard that.
Troy:
Excellent. Yeah. I heard your neighbor farting on my podcast. And is that an XLR mic or a USB mic?
Lee:
It’s USB. I think it’s got all sorts of things at the bottom of this bad boy.
Troy:
It sounds lovely, my friend.
Lee:
Thank you. Well, also, I’ve had this cold, haven’t I? So I’ve kind of got a bit of a Barry White kind of bass spoon to the voice right now. So I’m enjoying it.
Troy:
Awesome. Awesome. I learned one of the tunes the other day. I’ve got the lyrics up for the Barry White song. You know the one where he talks? I’ve forgotten it now. And he talks. He’s got a speaking intro. And he’s like, and we’ve known love, and we’ve made love, and all that sort of stuff. So I put it on the other day to my wife. She was like, go away. I was like, ah. Barry, you lied to me.
Lee:
So you said you’ve had a… Sorry, carry on.
Troy:
Isn’t he in an episode of South Park? Isn’t Barry White in an episode of South Park where he talks about his chocolate salted balls?
Lee:
Yes. I’m sure. That was it, yeah. He’s like, he’s a cook. He’s like a cook in a cafeteria in a South Park. And he sings about, you know, his chocolate salted balls. That’s hilarious. That’s right. I went and saw Book of Mormon recently written by the same guys that write South Park. It is the funniest and most offensive musical theater production I’ve ever seen. And offensive to everyone. Not just the Mormons. It’s offensive to everyone. It’s like they do not discriminate in their offense. It’s hilarious.
Troy:
That is strange. It’s weird, isn’t it? Like watching South Park, I’m like, this is wrong. And yet I find it hilarious. And I’ve never quite understood the psychology of that. But that’s probably a whole kind of different episode.
Lee:
You said you’ve had a successful day though: like describe a successful day for Mr. Troy.
Troy:
Well, you know, I’ve been trying to implement something in our business for a long time. And we finally got it working today. And so we’re actually now live for the first time. We have rolled out. So I’m a big fan of, I like marketing automation when it helps you provide a personal experience. For someone in your email list, for example. So, you know, we’re very familiar with this. That you can tag someone in your email provider. Whether it’s Drip or Infusionsoft or whatever you’re using. And then you can send them emails based on their tags, right? So I could send you an email talking about the ATR microphone series. Because I know you’re interested in that. Because that’s what you opted in for on my website. So that’s all cool. We know we can do that. But what’s really exciting is when you can actually start to deliver a personalized experience of your website. To people who are visiting your website. Again, based on their behavior and based on their tags. So commonly known as dynamic call to actions. We rolled this out today for the first time. It’s working a treat. We’ve just tested it. And it’s technically been quite a challenge to do. But we found a great little tool called ConvertFlow that does it. And we’ve had a call with the guys at ConvertFlow. Ethan and Jonathan. And they’ve been fantastic. Their support’s been awesome. And so we’re very excited. We’ve rolled out our first dynamic call to action flow on our website. And essentially what that means is that if you go to a particular blog post on our website, there’s a call to action. Once you’ve completed that call to action, the call to action changes. Because, you know, why would I show you an ad for an e-book on my website if you’ve already downloaded that e-book?
Lee:
Oh, I see what you mean, yeah.
Troy:
So now I want to show you an ad for a course based on that e-book, which is an extension of that because that’s where you’re at in the flow. So it’s very, we’re very excited. Oh, and that’s dependent on, pardon, the e-book as well. So you might have two or three e-books and they’ve gone for that particular call to action for that e-book, which is on that particular funnel track workflow.
Lee:
Correct. And therefore, the next time they’re on the page, they’ve got a completely different ad that’s not related to e-books. It could actually be to your, I don’t know, initial free course or whatever it is on that particular subject. That’s cool.
Troy:
Yep, that’s right. And you can also trigger, not to get too geeky about it, but you can also trigger, so it talks to, you know. You’re on a WordPress podcast, you can be geeky.
Lee:
Exactly.
Troy:
It also triggers, it also talks to, you know, Drip or Infusionsoft or whatever CRM and email marketing solution you’re using via tags or custom fields. And you can, I can, if we know who you are, if you’ve visited the website and you’re cookied or even better if you’ve subscribed to our list, then I can trigger an email sequence based on a page that you visit on the website. So, say, for example, you visit the pricing page, I can then know that you’re a very warm lead and that cost might be an objection for you, so I can send you a specific email campaign to have a conversation about that without being too creepy, of course.
Lee:
Yeah.
Troy:
So, it’s basically, it’s what they call on-page targeting. So, it’s kind of like how Facebook follow you around with ads.
Lee:
Yeah.
Troy:
You can do that on your own website with dynamic call to action. So, we’re very excited about that. And, yes, they are the kinds of things that get me excited these days.
Lee:
Well, that’s good. That’s good, I guess you’re excited. I’m just kind of like, I’m conscious now that I’ve had a look around your websites, you know, just to refresh myself. And you are probably now dynamically serving me content. I clicked on, like, the join of WP Elevation to see if that’s open yet. So, presumably, I’m now in a workflow as a hot lead.
Troy:
Correct, you will be. Because they’re so gorgeous.
Lee:
That’s right. And, in fact, I’m going to start sending you ads on our website just about the ATR microphones. And I can actually just show those ads to you, Mr. Lee Jackson, and nobody else. And I think I might just do that just for a bit of fun.
Lee:
Can I just say, by the way, I love the WP Elevation website. I mean, you’ve never had a terrible website. But with the new branding.
Troy:
Well, actually, that’s not true. All right. It’s true. Your website two years ago looked pretty pence. But, you know, it doesn’t matter, does it? You know, the brand itself has never been bad. The color scheme. I love the color scheme. It’s one of my favorite colors. So, the brand itself and the brand equity of Troy Dean is priceless. But, obviously, the site didn’t look amazing back then. But now, look at it. It’s freaking amazing. Guys, WP Elevation.com, if you don’t know the one I’m talking about. Mind you, Rockstar Empires as well. You guys just rocking it. But I do love the layout of the new website and the way you’re doing the blog posts and that. I sent it to Larisha. I’m like, we need to send this to our designer because we need to take some inspiration from this because our sites are a bit boring right now. We’re like in the early stages.
Troy:
Thank you, man. It’s really good to hear that because, you know, it’s like every time I look at our website, I just see problems. I just see things that I want to fix. I just see, you know, bugs. I just see, you know, little tiny, you know, design flaws. I see problems with the user experience. And I’m really anal about trying to fix all of that stuff. And so, you know, it’s very rare that you actually sit back and go, you know what? We’re actually doing a pretty good job. It’s very easy to be critical on yourself rather than celebrate the win. So it’s good to hear that. Thank you, man. I appreciate it.
Lee:
I have the same feeling about our site. I mean, we actually rebranded as Angle Crown because Lee Jackson Dev sounded like a one-man band. And we’re trying to reach out to big U.S. agencies to provide our service there. And then I’m trying to separately grow the brand of Lee Jackson as just Lee Jackson, who has multiple different brands associated with him. But he’s also a brand in his own right. But, yeah, so we just had to, like, launch our site. And we just said, right, Sade, what are you going to go with it? It doesn’t look great or anything like that. And like you, like, there’s things niggling in my head. Like, I don’t like the user experience. I don’t like this. I don’t like that. And yet, still, I get people saying, oh, it’s a really great website. We love the bold colors and everything. And I’m like, well, we’ll just be doing something right. It is great. It’s beautiful.
Troy:
Thanks, mate. Just a sidebar. I’ll send you to – and you can take some inspiration from these guys. The guys that designed our website, I think you’ll appreciate this because looking at your website, I know you’ll appreciate it. The guys that designed our website and that do all of our branding for WP Elevation and Rockstar Empires are a company here in Melbourne called Studio Alto. A-L-T-O, studioalto.com. And if you look at their website, they too are big fans of bold, bright colors. And in fact, they won an AWW award, whatever it’s called, an AWW award for best site of the day, best website.
Lee:
Really?
Troy:
Which I’m very proud of because we developed their website. They designed it. We developed it. They design our websites. We developed them in-house. So very excited. We are officially an award-winning development agency and they are award-winning designers. So take some inspiration from the work that they’ve done because those guys are just awesome. And they’re just super, really nice guys too.
Lee:
Your site, though, is actually better than theirs. I’ll tell Mark that. He’ll be very happy about it. They’ve gone for that proper typography design, kind of lots of negative space. They’re total design geek.
Troy:
Yeah, yeah. They’re total design. So it is, I mean, it’s a designer’s wet dream, but for me as a WordPress guy, I’m probably like, where’s the buttons? Ah, damn it.
Lee:
That’s right. I need to click on a button to fill in a form, damn it. Exactly. Where’s the two-step pop-up?
Troy:
Yeah, exactly. Studioalto.com. If you’re looking for a great branding agency, guys, that’s studioalto.com. Recommended by Troy himself. Troy, since we last talked, there is a new member of your team, Christina. Can you tell us a little bit about Christina and how she got involved?
Troy:
Yeah. Well, actually, since we last spoke, there are several new members of our team. But Christina is the… Sorry. Let’s take a step back. Christina joined WP Elevation back in 2013, and she was a stay-at-home mom, a couple of kids, third one on the way, I think, or maybe she… No, she wasn’t pregnant when she joined us. She had two kids. She was working from home, kind of struggling with processes, feeling a little bit overwhelmed. She’d convinced her husband to quit his full-time job and work with her in the business. That didn’t go so well. So she joined, she got one of our emails, joined WP Elevation, and she just became like super student. Like, you know, every now and then you get a student who joins your program and literally does every single thing that you teach them and implements on everything and then feeds it back to you and says, oh, by the way, this is awesome. Check this out. Look what I’ve done here. Look what I’ve done here. And she just became such a valuable member of our community that when we were looking at hiring some additional coaches, because the membership just grew too big for me to handle on my own, that she was the obvious choice. It was like, well, I mean, we have to start paying her because she’s already doing the job of a coach. She was directing traffic in our Facebook group. She was helping other people. She was running her own webinars. It was like, made perfect sense to hire her as one of our coaches. Since then, she’s actually become a business partner in Rockstar Empires. So she is a shareholder and a director at Rockstar Empires, and she is one of the coaches at WP Elevation, and she’s also a customer success manager at WP Elevation. She still also runs her own client services business, and she now has three kids under the age of six, and she works from home, and she’s a superwoman, and I don’t know how she does it.
Lee:
I’m never going to complain I’m busy again. I can’t either. And my wife is having our first baby in about 10 or 11 weeks’ time.
Troy:
Wow. Congratulations, man. I didn’t even know that.
Lee:
I’m very excited. Not many people do. I haven’t really announced that. So it’s a coup. Here it is, exclusive on WP. I better launch the episode today, then, aren’t I, so I can get the exclusive. And so Christina keeps saying, and she says, I can’t wait until you’ve got a kid, because she said, you know, you are going to understand, because she says, you have no idea right now how I get stuff done. And she said, you’re going to understand. It’s all going to make sense. So I’m looking forward to that, but I’m also slightly terrified.
Troy:
Mate, it’s the best thing ever. Actually, I mean, just speaking of kids to go gooey for a minute. But me and Kate often imagine, what the hell would we be doing right now if we didn’t have Ella around the house? It’s like, we’d just be so bored. There’s only so much of Netflix you can watch.
Lee:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know what we would do, honestly. So I can’t actually remember. So as a guy who can remember what you’re doing without kids, maybe try and make some notes so that in three years time, when you think back, what the hell did I spend my life doing? I’m watching Netflix, dude. Is that all? Yeah, cool. Well, I’ll tell you what happened. Say goodbye to Netflix. We really started watching Netflix when my wife fell pregnant because we were like, well, you know, I mean, we’re both pretty active and she runs a podcast and I’ve got a podcast. We work pretty hard. And then, you know, she was like, I think I just need to slow down a bit. So we just settled in. We started watching The Good Wife on Netflix. We’ve kind of fallen in love with the show. We were watching Homeland. It was a little bit intense. We were both kind of having weird dreams after watching intense episodes of Homeland. So we started watching The Good Wife. It’s very light and very fluffy. Nothing majorly bad really ever happens. So we can watch it, go to bed, get a good night’s sleep. So I imagine that will stop when we have, you know, when we have the babies.
Lee:
No. Yeah. How old is Ella?
Troy:
She’s 10 now. Wow. And I met my wife when my wife was 14. So I just keep thinking, oh my gosh, four more years and she could be having a boyfriend. And I’m going to have to try and like be cool about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. No idea if I can manage that one. I’m going to be calling you for advice in the years to come, I’m sure, man. We’ll be having WP Dad podcast. Is there a podcast, WP Dad? If there’s not, someone should start that podcast. Get the domain quick. Quick, get the domain. That’s brilliant. WP Dad. Well, there’s loads of us out there. I could name five off the top of my head.
Lee:
Absolutely. Something came up in my stream the other day and there is like, this is a completely messy interview and I love it. This is beautiful. But just popped into my head. Someone said the other day, shared something about WP Elevation and GoDaddy. Can you tell us about that?
Troy:
Yeah. So what happened is, so my buddy Ned Dwyer, who I know from, he is a Melbourne boy. He had a business called Tweaky. Started out as Tweaky.com. And he was the first one to kind of go to have a marketplace of web developers. And it was basically all WordPress. It was like, it started out as $29 for a simple tweak to your WordPress website. And he built a marketplace of developers and he had some project managers working with him. And then he pivoted, the price went up, then he pivoted and it became Elto, E-L-T-O. And it was digital marketing. So it was, you know, you could get like a Facebook header image done. You could get, you know, some emails written. And it became productized. And he really pioneered that marketplace kind of space. And then GoDaddy bought him. He moved over to San Francisco. GoDaddy bought him. And since then, GoDaddy have been on a mission to, I mean, let’s call a spade a spade. They haven’t had a great reputation in the web developer industry because they had some problems with their product and their customer service. And so they’ve really been on a mission to turn that reputation around over the last couple of years. And part of how they want to do that is to, and Ned’s really been driving this, is Ned’s always saying in their meetings, you’ve got to educate. Like modern day marketing is through education. You can’t just sell people. You’ve got to educate them. So every time this came up in conversation and they’re like, okay, well, how do we roll out educational materials for our GoDaddy Pro customers? So they’ve got a lot, like, you know, a lot of GoDaddy Pro customers that are using the GoDaddy Pro platform. And they’re all guys like you and I who, you know, build websites for clients and they need help with their business. And so every time this conversation came up, Ned would say, well, we should just get Troy and WP Elevation to help us with this. So we did a partnership deal where essentially what happens is GoDaddy basically pay us a licensing fee once a month and we provide – they pay us a monthly licensing fee. And we provide a webinar, a blog post, a content upgrade, so some kind of checklist or download. And they publish that. We run the webinar for them. We provide all the content. We – you know, it’s an end-to-end solution. We also include them as a sponsor on our podcast. And it’s different material than we have in our program, but it’s inspired by – and so I’ll give you an example. One of the things that we give away a lot is our proposal template. It’s probably the number one thing that we have that gets downloaded. So instead of just giving away the proposal template –
Lee:
And I still use it, by the way. Years later, I still use it.
Troy:
There you go. So instead of just giving that away to the GoDaddy Pro customers, we write a 2,000-word blog post that explains how to use it. We then run a training webinar that really is a deep dive and explains how to use it. And then they have the recording of that webinar they can then use for more lead generation in the future. So it’s all about them trying to really be helpful to the GoDaddy Pro customers. And for us, it gives us some more resources and some more money in the bank so that we can, you know, up the ante with our podcast. We now have five people hosting our podcast. There’s myself, the other three coaches, and Jin, who’s been working with us here for three years. It means that we can, you know, provide more higher quality production values and our content that we put out. And we all get to wear nice WP Elevation shirts when we do our interviews and our videos. And I bought some new cameras and, you know. So it’s a really nice relationship. And it all came about because when I was over in San Francisco last year, I went and hung out at the GoDaddy offices. They invited me to come and meet with them and hang out. And I just got chatting with Jeff King at the time, who was VP of hosting. And I saw how genuinely passionate that whole team are about helping the WordPress developer, which is in perfect alignment with what we’re doing. So, yep. I mean, that’s basically the relationship in a nutshell.
Lee:
That’s cool. I’m really encouraged as well by what GoDaddy are doing because they have had a really bad rap and for good reason for many years.
Troy:
Totally. And that was first to admit.
Lee:
Exactly. But for the last two years, they’ve really invested. You know, they’ve got security now as well, which is great. They bought ManageWP. And that GoDaddy Pro, I was looking at it the other day. It looks pretty awesome. You’re getting all sorts of stuff in that. So you can check out godaddy.com forward slash pro. If you are already a customer, guys, you get access to the brain of Troy and his team. That’s pretty cool, isn’t it?
Troy:
And if you’re not a customer and you go to GoDaddy Pro, GoDaddy.com slash pro, there’s a resources page. And on that resources page are a whole bunch of webinars that we’ve already run for them. And there’ll be new webinars announced there every month. So you can sign up, get on one of the free training webinars. I get tweets, I still get tweets from guys who were on webinars three months ago that are like, oh, wow, man. I just, you know, got my, you know, doubled my price and got my first high paying client with this proposal template I got off the GoDaddy WP Elevation webinar. And I’m like, sweet, man. That’s why we get out of bed every day. It makes it all worthwhile.
Lee:
That is awesome. I do love that. That’s one of the things that I’m passionately telling people all the time is, you know, the price thing. It’s always a massive problem, isn’t it, for a lot of people. I think I sold my first website for 150 quid.
Troy:
Yeah. Wow.
Lee:
And I thought that was a lot of money. And then I realized, oh.
Troy:
That’s not sustainable, is it? No. You’ll go broke real quick doing that. Yeah. I did. And I think part of it, I mean, part of it is the fact that it’s a mindset thing. It’s all mindset. But part of it is the fact that WordPress is free. It’s open source. When I first discovered WordPress, I mean, you probably had a similar experience. You discover WordPress, you find the plugin repository, right? And it’s like, oh, my Lord. Like, for me, it was like the clouds parted, you know. I saw the light. I’m like, are you kidding me? I remember the first time I installed the events calendar plugin from Modern Tribe, the free one. Yeah. And I looked and I’m like, this would take me six weeks to code this. Yeah. And it’s free. And if I ask a question on the support forum, they’ll answer it. I mean, it’s ridiculous. So that, I think, is part of the mindset where a lot of people come into this space and they go, wow, how can I charge four or five grand or 10 grand for a website when I’m using software that’s free and plugins that are free? And, of course, you know, I know that the sum total is worth more than the parts and the value you add to the whole consulting part of it. But I think a big part of that pricing thing is mindset when people first start out in this space for sure.
Lee:
I think as well, one thing I’ve realized over time is that although these free plugins are great, there are loads of them. Some of them aren’t necessarily great, but like well built. And usually for peace of mind, for clients that you’re working with, with the higher budgets as well, they kind of like it when you go for a paid product where they’re paying some sort of, you know, yearly support fee. They understand that they’re a client, that there is a business behind it that’s sustainable and it’s not a hobby by a few people that will do it as and when they can. You know, because I’ve seen plugins like just fall apart because the guy had a kid.
Troy:
Yeah, disappear off the face of the planet.
Lee:
The guy had a kid and it was less compatible with 3.2 or something like that and we’re all like, I really want to use it. So, yeah, so, you know, so I found that as well, you know, early days I was using free plugins thinking this was amazing and totally undervaluing. And then, yeah, suddenly realizing obviously there’s the skill aspect, the fact I know how to do it, but also for a safer bet and for me to be able to sleep at night, I kind of prefer to go for a few paid products. And I also limit the amount of products I use in a WordPress podcast, WordPress website as well. You know, just go for the basics that you need.
Troy:
That’s right. And go for the ones that, you know, work. So, I’m curious, how do you handle, this is your podcast, but I’m asking the questions. How do you handle the annual license for the plugins? Do you just factor that into some kind of ongoing maintenance plan or do you just build a client, you just get the client to pay it?
Lee:
Oh, thank you very much. Someone’s making me a cup of tea. That’s nice. Oh, lovely. Lovely. Yeah, no, I will get the clients to pay for it. So, I mean, I’m in a lucky position where I’m working with agencies, so I work with design agencies. So, it’s a very easy conversation to have with them saying, right, here’s your shopping list. Go and set up your subscriptions. Give me all the access on Basecamp so they’ll give me all their account access details, et cetera. And then I’ll go and grab the API keys and install it in WordPress and all that sort of stuff. So, that’s a very easy thing to do. And I think this is a really interesting conversation, Lee, because a lot of people, we’ve got, you know, over 700 people in our program now. And I see these conversations happen in our Facebook group every single day that people are like, well, you know, I don’t understand. Like, if the client’s paying for the Gravity Forms subscription, won’t they just, you know, get Gravity Forms and do it themselves? And I’m like, okay, like, if your client was savvy enough to know how to download Gravity Forms and install it and configure it and set up the conditional logic and the notifications, they wouldn’t be talking to you in the first place. Exactly. The value that you add is not the code. It’s not the plug-ins. It’s how that all ties together into a solution. And the example I always use is download WordPress, download Gravity Forms, download, you know, one of the Genesis themes, download Beaver Builder, zip it all up, put it in a zip file, send it to your client and say, there’s your website. They don’t know what to do with that, do they, right? What are they going to do? That’s not worth anything, you know?
Lee:
That’s a good example. I’m glad to hear that, man. I’m glad to hear that’s the way you handle things. That’s a good model. Yeah. I mean, back in the day when I first launched, you know, everyone thought you needed to keep it as WordPress a secret and all the plugins you were using a secret because you felt like you had to be the guy who was doing all this. But it’s just not reasonable. Like you said, it would take you six months or something to build a plugin. So, why lie? The other thing, going back to Gravity Forms as well, is Gravity Forms is great, but let’s face it, it actually looks really ugly in a lot of websites. Even with a great theme, the themes forget all the different font styling, sorry, form stylings. So, you end up like an ugly select box and a gorgeous text input.
Troy:
Yeah, that’s right.
Lee:
So, a client’s going to install that themselves and they’re going to know how to style it as well. So, again, it’s all that. Correct. All those extra skills. Yep. Exactly. So, you’ve been running WP Elevation. So, you took something that you know and love. You’ve grown an amazing audience. Obviously, you’ve now got the GoDaddy audience as well. You’ve taken all of that skill into Rockstar Empires where you’re teaching people to become rock stars in their industries. Can you just tell us a little bit about how that all got started?
Troy:
Yeah. So, the same way that WP Elevation got started. You know, I’m a big fan of stacking the odds in my favor. So, Rockstar Empires started because I had so many people asking me the same question over and over again on email, which is, you know, how have you moved away from client services and digitized your services into a product that you now sell online? And, you know, you’ve got this recurring revenue business model. So, there are all these questions that were basically, you know, the same answers. And I realized, you know, instead of answering these questions over and over again, I could just answer these questions once, make really nice videos, put them up online, and probably sell them as a course. And that’s exactly how WP Elevation started as well. People were asking me, how do you write your proposals? And how do you do project management? How do you avoid scope creep? How do you do your pricing? How do you hire staff? All that stuff. And so, when you realize that you’ve got a market of people who are hungry for the same answers, then you realize that you’ve probably got an audience that will buy a course. So, we validated the idea very quickly. I had a Facebook group that we own, big fan of running really good Facebook groups. I think they’re a great way to build an audience. I actually think they’re more engaging than email lists. And I just dropped a link, a question in at one of our Facebook groups and said, and they were Facebook groups of small business owners. It wasn’t WordPress-centric. And I just said, hey, would anyone here – who here would pay $997 for a series of webinars to learn how to create and sell your own lucrative online courses? And I had 10 people that afternoon pay done and dusted. And I said, I only want to take 10 for this initial pilot program. 10 people paid that afternoon. And I went, right, we’ve got something here. We ran that pilot program. We did a round two of the same webinars that we sold to 35 people at the same price point. And I said, right, we’ve got something. And then we packaged that up into a course. That’s when Christina and I formalized the partnership, signed all the documents, set it up as a separate entity. And we created the six-week DripFed Rockstar Empires course, which we’ve now launched three times. And it’s a thing. And it’s been a wild ride. And it’s been a great journey. And it’s a lot of fun. And it’s really interesting to talk to podiatrists and psychologists and copywriters and photographers and authors and people who have an existing business. And this is really where I think online courses, the sweet spot is for online courses, is where you’ve got an existing business that you’ve proven works and you want to scale it. And you can’t scale client services because it’s essentially time for money. And so an online course is a great way to scale something that you’ve already proven works.
Lee:
I love that. It’s a way to scale. And it’s something that we are often thinking about because the only way I’m going to grow this agency is by not doing more code because I need to get more staff and everything else like that. But it’s actually to find other ways of providing value. So, we’ve launched the YouTube channel a couple of weeks ago, which we’re starting to build up content for to do that whole, you know, trying to push myself up there as an influencer or someone to go and learn from. And then we want to do what you guys are doing and package up courses for, you know, for our guys. So, we’re looking at trying to help design agencies who come from a print background kind of pivot and go into digital, you know, so that kind of niche we’re after. And we want to create some valuable, pay-for products for them as well.
Troy:
Dude, I’ve got to tell you that that is an amazing niche. The design agencies that come from traditional branding and print backgrounds and really want to ramp up into digital, that is an amazing market. And they are hungry and they will pay for training. I think that is an absolute sweet spot that you’re in there right there. So, keep your foot on the pedal, man, and keep me posted. I’d love to see how that rolls out. Like you said, execution is everything and we are pedal to the metal right now. Sarah Moore is helping us as well. You know, Sarah Moore?
Lee:
Ah. Yeah. I was going to mention Sarah, actually. She’s one of our musicians.
Troy:
Yes, she’s awesome. And she is a good unit, that girl. She is fantastic. She’s a good unit. Yeah, yeah. That’s a great… She’s a good unit. I’m going to tell you that. You’re a good unit, Sarah Moore. I hope she takes that as a compliment because that’s how it’s meant. But yeah, she’s a good girl, Sarah. I’ve got a lot of time for Sarah. I like her a lot. She’s actually launching… I don’t know if you’ve seen the teaser trailers and that, but she’s actually launching a series of videos all around create. It’s called Create and about creating content and everything. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So I recommend you just connect with her on that because I reckon you could probably get involved. It sounds pretty cool what she’s doing. But I’m not allowed to say much because she’s not told anyone. Well, she’s done the teaser, but do connect with her on that.
Lee:
Yeah. I reckon… I will pretend we have not had this conversation.
Troy:
Well, everyone has heard it now. So she will hear this because I assume she listens religiously to the podcast. Well, she does. And I know that she stalks me and listens to everything that I’m involved in as well.
Lee:
Stalks? Mate, you’re digging. Just quickly on Rockstars then, what I can take from this as well is that you validated very quickly. You were able to validate kind of in two waves of validation. Ten people bought first time around and then you did it again. Like another 30 or whatever it was people bought at a price point. Freaking out. You know people want to pay for the information. You can now start to go and build a course. Guys, if you want to learn more information, check out RockstarEmpires.com. That’s run by Troy, Dean, and Christina. Is that Romero? That is. That’s a cool last name. I want a last name. I’m going to change my last name.
Troy:
It is a cool name. Lee Romero. No, no, it sounds weird. Lee Romero. Oh, if you do it like that. Actually, say Lee Jackson in that voice. Let’s see if it sounds like a… Lee Jackson. See, it doesn’t work, does it? It’s not. Lee Romero. Oh, it’s Jack. It’s Jack. Look, a client has just come by and dropped off coffee. How cool is that?
Lee:
Oh, fantastic. I like your comments. Are you going to go meet with him or is he gone now?
Troy:
Oh, yeah. Thank you. Sorry. If you let him know I’m on a podcast. That’s so cool. I’m too busy to talk to my clients. I’m on a podcast. Yeah, we’ve got… He runs the CrossFit down the way, so we’ve been building a website with him. He’s a lovely guy. They’ve got this amazing coffee machine that is just incredible. And he often comes over and just brings a nice coffee to then have a chat about his website and the next steps he wants to take. So, no, that’s lovely. I forgot what I was talking about.
Lee:
Do you guys work in an office or do you work from a home office or a co-working space or what’s the setup?
Troy:
Well, you can see the camera now. So, this is the messy office at the moment. We’ve got this one room here. I’ve got my lighting for the videos. I’ve got all my on-brand paint that we did on the wall and everything. Cool. That’s Larissa’s. We’ve got two standing desks. Great. Karthik works in India, in an office in India, in Valour. Beautiful place. And then we obviously have got contractors as well that work on and off, switch them on and off. Not physically, but you bring them into projects as and when all around the world from their home offices. I love working here because I get to work with Larissa. And Larissa, I guess a bit like Christina, the conversation there is Larissa is someone who came in as an apprentice or an intern, a paid intern, I guess. And she has literally just soaked everything up I’ve ever told her and she’s doing everything that I tell her and more. And within a year, year and a half, I think it’s nearly two years now, she’s building WordPress websites from literally not being able to code at all.
Lee:
Wow. That’s cool. She’s listening to all these podcasts as well that we do. She’ll be listening to this one, making show notes and everything. And she’s like a sponge. It’s so exciting to see her growth as well. Hi, Larissa. As you’re writing the show notes.
Troy:
She’s actually out. Oh, yeah. Hi, Larissa. And thanks for the tea. I sent her a message earlier going, tea. What’s your talking? What was I going to say? I forgot what I was going to say, but that doesn’t matter. That’s exciting. But anyway, we’re saying, yeah, rockstarempires.com. You can go check that out, guys. And then you were doing my name in a kind of a film style.
Lee:
Oh, well, that’s right. Lee Jackson, otherwise known as Lee Romero. Lee Romero. Romero sounds cool, but I probably can’t steal her name. That’s just kind of weird. No. I need to come up with more of a film. Well, her husband, Dan, it’s his name. So Dan might be a bit weird about that. Yeah, yeah. Dan wouldn’t like that, I’m sure. Yeah. Her maiden name is Sisko, actually. S-I-S-C-O. And if you Google Christina Sisko, she used to be a daytime television actress. And in fact, she was nominated for an Emmy Award, I think, twice. She worked on a soap opera called As the World Turns. As the World Turns. No way. She was on As the World Turns. That’s insane.
Troy:
Yeah, from the age of like 16 to 19, she was on As the World Turns. That brings my memories. There you go. Christina Sisko. So, mate, I’m going to introduce something now. It’s a new feature of the WP Innovator podcast. And when we know who’s coming on the show, we get the group to ask some questions.
Lee:
That’s good. Yeah, so we’ve actually got a whole lot of questions in here. And if you’re not a member of the group, head on over to anglecrown.com forward slash group, and that will redirect you to the WP Innovator Facebook group. Currently rocking 590 members of designers and developers sharing cat pictures. That’s work. Yeah. And asking Troy questions at the moment. So, one of our first questions. Do you mind doing a few of these? If there’s any you don’t want to answer, just…
Troy:
Hit me. I’m an open book, dude. I’ll answer anything.
Lee:
What color underwear are you?
Troy:
No, I’m joking. No, no one asked.
Lee:
Black. All right. Oh, okay. Same. Mate. We’re just like… Yeah, yeah. It’s a brother from another mother. This is amazing. Black. Black. If in doubt, we’re black.
Lee:
Jeffrey Patch asks, how’s life doubling as a bona fide rock star? Jeffrey Patch. I met Jeffrey in… Yeah. I met Jeffrey in California in February. I was out there, and we hung out at Mixology 101, my favorite bar in West Hollywood, who one of our members, Jonathan Holborn, introduced me to when I first went to California. And Jeffrey’s a dude. He’s a legend. And life is very good as a bona fide rock star. Nice one.
Lee:
We’ve already asked Michael Turnup’s question, or Turnrup. I can never say your name, Michael. You’re going to have to… I know Michael, too.
Troy:
Yeah. Well, we all know the same people. That’s right. There you go. Do you know Jay Oakley?
Lee:
No, Jay Oakey, sorry. I do. Jay Oakey and his wife, Tina, were at our Christmas party here last year. I know them very well.
Troy:
All right. Here you go. Well, Jay asks, and I’ve not read this, so let’s find out what he says. He says, what challenges and opportunities do you, Troy Dean, see facing WordPress consultants and developers in the current market? And how do you decide on what services to offer in-house versus refer?
Lee:
That’s a great question.
Troy:
So let me answer the first part of that question first. The challenge, I think, is as more and more kind of page builders and, you know, do-it-yourself solutions come into the space like Wix and Squarespace and Weebly and, you know, Grid or whatever new thing is coming along. I think the challenge that we have is that we, you know, a lot of… And we see this conversation in our Facebook group every day is a lot of people feel threatened by this do-it-yourself kind of technology. I think it’s an amazing opportunity because, you know, I even saw something recently where you can just grab a PSD file and chuck it into this, into the browser and it automatically cuts up the HTML and CSS. Well, that’s great. But the question is, what are you going to put in the PSD file? What’s the headline say? What’s the call to action? You know, like, what’s the customer journey? You know, we’ve been working on the web for a long time, you and I and all these guys in these groups that we’re talking about. We understand what works and what doesn’t. So the challenge is, and the opportunity is, I think, is to stop thinking of yourself as a WordPress developer and start thinking of yourself as a digital business consultant because that’s really how you’re going to sustain yourself long-term. The second part of that question is, what do you do in-house and what do you refer out? What you do in-house, I think, is what you’re really good at and what you’re really passionate about. So when we first started out, we realized very quickly that we were crap at hosting and we didn’t really like it. So we stopped doing it.
Lee:
Amen, brother. Woo!
Troy:
Thank you. We were really good at SEO, but we didn’t really like it. So we outsourced that. But at least we knew how to outsource it because we knew how it worked. We loved social and we were really good at it. So we did lots of social campaigns for clients. So do what you’re good at and what you’re passionate about and refer out everything else. Sarah Moore is obviously great at video. That’s her sweet spot. Why would she outsource that? I mean, that’s what she does. On the hosting thing as well, I was terrible at hosting. It was just so stressful. And I had clung onto it for dear life for years. Yeah, because it’s recurring. Because it was recurring revenue. And then I realized it’s a recurring headache. It’s recurring calls on the weekend. It’s recurring calls in the middle of the night. And it’s recurring stress. And actually, if you add all of that up, it was actually pennies compared to it. I could probably just build two more websites and replace all of my hosting revenue ever that I’d ever achieved over years. So, yeah, hence the thing. All right. Robbie Lawrence. You don’t know.
Lee:
Oh, Roby. Is it Roby? I wondered. You had that little accent above the thing. Yeah, Roby’s from Queensland. I’ve met Robbie as well. I met him at WordCamp Sunshine Coast. This is hilarious. All right. Well, see what happened. I’m going to say my mum’s name in a minute. I actually paid all these. Oh, yeah, Christine. I know Christine. Sorry. I actually just paid all these guys to ask these questions. They’re all planted.
Troy:
Ah. Oh, okay. I get you. Well, all right. Robbie then. Sorry, mate. I butchered your name earlier. Haven’t seen any videos from the gym recently. How’s that going for you?
Troy:
So, here’s the thing, dude. This is actually a serious point. Okay. We are rolling out Mental Health Month here at WP Elevation for the month of May. I actually didn’t know this, but the month of May is Mental Health Awareness Month in the United States and has been for 49 years. I didn’t know that. When we started talking about Mental Health Month in May, I said, this is a great idea. Let’s do it. So, all of our content this month is around Mental Health because we’re really passionate about having open conversations about mental health because I think the more people feel comfortable talking about it, the better it is for everyone. Now, my number one tip for good mental health is regular physical exercise. So, I would live stream from the gym quite a lot because my personal trainer likes to do weird things like strap me up in a TheraBand and hold me like a dog on a lead and make me sprint up and down the gym.
Lee:
Are you sure you’re at a gym?
Troy:
I’m at a gym. What’s her name? I’m at a gym. What’s her name? Madame Dominique. I’m fully clothed. And so I would post these videos from the gym partially as a – I mean, why not? Because they were fun but also partially as a way of saying to people, you know – and I actually had some guys and girls reach out to me and say, you’ve inspired me to get off my ass and go and do some exercise and I feel better for doing it. And that was my whole mission was to just remind people that physical exercise is really good for your head. That’s the reason I go to the gym is for my head. Yes. The physicality is a byproduct of doing regular exercise but I do it to keep my head clear.
Lee:
That’s really cool and obviously, it started out as a joke question and it was a great question, Lawrence. But, you know, I actually do struggle with depression and I’ve talked about it on the podcast probably multiple times as well and recently just came off the tablets about four weeks ago. So, I’m now four weeks – oh, and then I got hit with a terrible illness as well four weeks ago at the same time. So, that kind of sucked but I managed to keep off them which is great. But, yeah, one of the big things was we’re replacing the tablets with the physical exercise. Yeah. And I’ve just bought a bike. I go and collect it like after this podcast and I’ll be biking into work every day as well. So, that will be like eight miles a day plus whatever else exercise I do.
Troy:
That’s so good to hear, dude. And, you know, I just think it like – here’s the thing, right? I’ve been really self – I’ve had – you know, I don’t use the word suffer. I use the word experience. I’ve experienced anxiety and depression in the past and I’ve also been really self-conscious about not having this conversation publicly. I’m about to. I had this conversation at WordCamp Atlanta in my presentation and WordCamp Miami and I told my story there and I’m about to tell the story on our blog this month. We’re shooting a video in the next couple of days about it. But I’ve been really self-conscious about this and I’ll tell you why. My self-consciousness came from I never wanted anyone to think that I’m talking about my experience with anxiety and depression as a way of trying to get sympathy or as a way of trying to get people to join WP Elevation or as a way of trying to like fake authenticity or any of that bullshit, right? So, I’ve been really self-conscious about not having that conversation. But with Mental Health Month here, my wife is a psychologist. With Mental Health Month here in May, I’ve decided that I really want to have this conversation. But what I also know is that the benefit of people that you and I have in this conversation where we have a microphone, we have an audience, we are putting out this content, is that hopefully it inspires other people and makes other people feel more comfortable about having this conversation as well. Because you and I both know as a podcaster, people look – and I have my podcast heroes that I look up to and I know that I have in my audience, I have people that look up to us as a podcaster, right? So, there are people who will be hearing you and I have this conversation and they’ll be going, oh, wow, this is amazing to hear two people who have successful WordPress podcasts talk about their experience with mental health. It makes me feel less isolated and less alone because I also have mental health issues. So, I just think these conversations are really important and I applaud you for being open and having that conversation on your podcast. I wasn’t aware of that, but man, I applaud you for doing well.
Lee:
Well, it’s something I learned to kind of just talk about. One of the things, I mean, people know as well, I’m a guy of faith. And one of the things that if there’s something you’re experiencing that kind of has a hold on your life, it’s really good to expose light to it. So, if you can just – like if you can tell people and share your struggles with people regardless of what it is, that they – it being exposed to people, i.e. light being shone on it, really just helps kind of destroy the power of it as well. But also, the other thing is like I said earlier, I’ve kind of got no strategy. I’m kind of not selling anything to anyone. I’m kind of in a great place where I can just kind of randomly chat about it. I’ve got nothing to lose. I’m going to kind of chat to people about it. But what’s happened is that people do feedback and do exactly what you just said. They do write – I’ve had a few emails saying, well, thanks for sharing that story because you always look at the John Lee Dumas’es, the Russell Brunsons, these guys who always seem on fire and are super successful and are probably bathing in money or whatever it is, these silly things you come up in your head. And yet probably – and even they probably get stressed at times, even they have probably experienced some form of anxiety and everything like that.
Troy:
Absolutely. I mean I’ve been fortunate enough to share the stage with some pretty influential people in the online space. And, you know, I mean I won’t name names obviously for privacy reasons but I’ve had people in the green room backstage at conferences, you know, talk about the imposter syndrome. And people that I’ve looked at and gone, are you kidding me? Like you have the imposter syndrome where, you know, you feel like someone’s going to tap you on the shoulder and say, no, no, no, no, no, you’re a fraud and everyone’s discovered you’re a fraud. And that anxiety before you walk on stage of like the whole crowd just looking at you going, no, dude, we know you’re full of shit. I’ve had some amazing people, you know, admit this to me backstage and I’ve realized that, you know, most people, most people actually have some kind of mental health conversation in their own head at some point in their life. They reckon one in – in Australia they reckon one in five people actually experience a mental illness in their life. I reckon that’s bullshit. I reckon one in five actually talk about it. I reckon it’s more like four out of five people actually have some kind of mental health issue going on in their head. They just don’t talk about it because they feel like it’s a weakness. They feel vulnerable if they talk about it. And before we did this interview, you pinged me and said you might be running late because you’re at the doctor, right? Well, if there’s something wrong in your body, you go to the doctor. If there’s something wrong in your head, you go to the doctor. What’s the bloody difference? And particularly in Australia we have this real blokey culture where, you know, you’re seen as kind of weak if you, you know, have some kind of mental illness. And it took me a long time to get my head around that, pardon the pun, and to acknowledge that and to be okay with it. And I’m so glad I did, man, because I can categorically tell you I would not be here where my business is right now. I feel so happy in myself. I’m the most comfortable I’ve ever been in my own skin. And that’s because I spent enough time on the bloody couch talking to a therapist about my shit and walking through the flames and dealing with my demons and eventually making friends with that anxiety and realizing that it was energy I could harness and use as fuel. And that came from spending, you know, probably three years really on and off on the couch talking through my issues with a qualified therapist and having some medication at one point as well to manage my anxiety. Because at one point I was so anxious and so depressed I could hardly get out of bed. So there’s no point going to therapy because you’re not actually doing the work, right? So a little bit of medication that helped me manage my mood and manage my anxiety and manage my depression allowed me to get out of bed and go to the therapist and actually start doing the work. And man, having done that work and invested in myself, invested that and it was painful work to do. It was confronting work to do. But having invested in myself, it was the best investment I ever made, man. And the thing is, once you come out the other side of it, no one can take it away from you. Once you make friends with what’s going on in your head and you actually drop in and you feel comfortable in your own skin, no one can take that away from you. It’s yours forever and that is the most empowering thing, man. It’s so powerful.
Lee:
Damn, that was good. Anyway, rant over. No, that was really good. Roby, you have unleashed a hugely deep conversation just with a joke. That’s amazing. No, that was so good. I love the idea of making friends with it, you know, just and using the energy from it as well, you know, because it is. It’s a form of energy and it can either sap you or you can use the energy, you know. So, and I always say things like a little bit of anxiety and nerves as well, especially before like a speech is actually a good thing. Because that’s going to keep you at the top of your game, you know, rather than that. Yeah. There you go. All right. Well, there’s a few, there’s quite a few questions. I’m only going to do a couple more because just because of time. And I mean, do you have to rush off soon?
Troy:
No, man, I don’t have to.
Lee:
Oh, you’re cool. All right. Well, let’s just keep going for now. You can always wave at me and say, right. Like that. All right, got to go. Desperate for the toilet or whatever it is. But Belinda White asks, how do you attract bigger clients?
Troy:
That’s a very good question. So, you know, okay. So how do you attract bigger clients? Have a different conversation. Find out what’s important to them. First of all, before you start attracting bigger clients, ask yourself why you want to attract bigger clients. Is it just because you want, you know, a project with more profit or, you know, bigger budgets? Or do you want kudos? Or do you want to win an award? Or like, you know, you can attract a big client to your portfolio just to get them on your portfolio, just to win an award. And there might not be any profit in the job. So ask yourself why you want the bigger client. And then once you know why you want the bigger client and who that client is, ask yourself, you know, because bigger clients generally, it’s a longer sales cycle. And they’re solving different problems than mom and pop shops, right? So the way to attract any client is to become the most helpful person in their life right now. So when they wake up, because here’s the thing, you and I both know, nobody wakes up in the middle of the night and says, the way that I’m going to solve this problem in my business is to spend money on my website. Said no one ever, right? No one says that. Business owners and marketing managers and people who are potentially our clients, they wake up in the middle of the night because they have a problem with staff or they have a problem with sales or they have a problem because they’re about to get acquired and they can’t work out how to position the business valuably enough. Or they want to open another franchise. These are the problems they have. Now, we know that a really good, powerful website can be part of that solution. Yeah. But you’ve got to start thinking of yourself as a business consultant, someone who can actually help them achieve their goals and overcome their objectives, not trying to sell them a website. Yes. And the way to attract bigger clients is to go and hang out where bigger clients are hanging out. So, you know, stop going to meetups where, you know, single operator coaches and consultants and authors are hanging out. Go to networking events and go to conferences where you are shit scared and you are way out of your depth and you’re way out of your comfort zone and go and talk to the vendors and the guys who are exhibiting and the guys who are sponsoring those conferences and ask them. Talk to them. Yes. Because they already have a network. They have attention. And ideally, if you can, get on the stage at those conferences. One of the best things I ever did was I did a road show around Australia with CPA, which is the Certified Practicing Accountants of Australia. I got up and I spoke at six different venues around Australia over a three-month period. And every time I was on stage, there were at least 300 accountants in the room and they all wanted to know how to use LinkedIn to get better clients. And I was talking to them about LinkedIn and then, you know, getting those people from LinkedIn back to your website and then what we do with them on the website. And at the end of the talk, you get off stage and you just stand there and collect business cards. It’s like take a number. You know what I mean? Like it’s not rocket science, but you have to have the intention. You’ve got to have – your intention has to be right. If your intention is congruent with your values and the kind of business and life that you want to lead, people will smell that a mile off and they will come to you like bees to honey.
Lee:
I love that. The idea – and you’ve said this like from the beginning because I remember joining WP Elevation years ago and went through the course, et cetera. And you were saying right from the get-go that you are a consultant. So, Belinda, you are a consultant. You don’t just design a website and implement a website. You’re actually a consultant who will go in to a business and tell them stuff they don’t even know that will help them generate leads, that will help them grow their business, et cetera. So, you can go in there as a quote-unquote rock star and go and have those conversations. Not can I build your website, but actually how can I help you in the whole realm of digital marketing, you know, everything.
Troy:
Correct. We had one of our members reach out recently in our Facebook group and say, I’ve got this website that’s just about over the line and now the client’s gone cold because they’ve got a problem with staff and they’re trying to hire some key staff members and that’s put the whole project on hold. And I said, hang on a second. Go in and ask him about his recruitment process. I guarantee he probably doesn’t have one. Ask him how he’s trying to find candidates and how he’s interviewing them. I promise he probably won’t have one. Tell him that a simple one page on his website, structured the right way, can actually filter out a lot of the bad candidates and attract the right candidates. You can, you know, using Beaver Builder, Gravity Forms, all the stuff we know. You can put something together very quickly. You can actually start becoming valuable to that guy right now instead of going, oh, I have to wait three months until he finds the right marketing person, right? Yes. Go and help him hire someone. Yes. Become a business. Help him solve that problem. He’s going to think your father Christmas, right?
Lee:
I feel like sharing. Preach. Preach, brother. This is good. So, Belinda, I hope that answered your question. That’s awesome. Maureen Denny asks, what’s the worst time waster? And I know for me it’s social media, although I do kill it on social media at the same time.
Troy:
Yeah. You know, it’s really interesting. I love social media, man. I’ve got to tell you something. I love my Facebook feed. I love my Facebook feed. I love it when people say, I hate Facebook. It’s a waste of time. You know why Facebook is a waste of time? The Facebook algorithm. It’s very simple. It’s a very simple business model, right? Facebook gets paid when you click on ads. Yep. The longer you spend in Facebook, the more chance you click on an ad. So, Facebook actually wants to give you what you want to see in Facebook. And there’s only three ways Facebook knows what you’re interested in. You either like it, you share it, or you comment on it. So, here’s the thing. If you see something in your news feed in Facebook that you like, bloody like it. Click the like button. Otherwise, Facebook doesn’t know you like it, right? Leave a comment. Share it with a friend. And guess what? You’ll start to see more stuff like that in your feed. So, I love my Facebook feed, and I love my Facebook groups. My Facebook groups, they’re my people. They’re my tribe. That’s where I get validation. That’s where I get, you know, it’s a great, it’s my happy place. The biggest time waster, the biggest time waster for me, that’s a really good question. I’ll tell you the biggest time waster for me. The biggest time waster for me, and it’s probably indicative of kind of where I’m at in the business journey right now, is incoming proposals from people who want to partner with us, who haven’t really thought through what’s in it for me. So, I’ll give you an example. I got one recently from a company who do some stuff, and they’ve got a product, and they want to get it in front of our audience. And we’ve got quite a sizable audience in the WordPress space. And so, I get this all the time. It’s like, oh, you know, we’d love to, you know, get our plug-in thing in front of your audience. And I’m like, I bet you would. And nowhere on my whiteboard does it say, hmm, promote new plug-in that someone else built to our audience, right? Like, it’s not on my agenda, dude. So, why would I do this? What’s in it for me? And here’s an idea. I live in Australia. You live in the UK. If you want to make an appointment with me and you want to have a chat with me on Skype, at least, please, go to World Time Buddy and work out the time conversions. And don’t ask me to get on a call when it’s 3 a.m. my time. That is a waste of my time. And those emails go straight in the trash, right? If someone says, you know, hey, love your podcast, loved episode 74 where you interviewed, you know, Yoast about blah, blah, blah. I’ve got this cool thing around SEO. Would love to have a chat. I’ve worked out the time zones. Can you do 6 p.m. Tuesday your time? I’m like, shit, why not? Yeah, I’ll do that. Because you’ve made it easy for me to say yes, right?
Lee:
Yeah.
Troy:
So, poorly formed and poorly communicated incoming proposals for JV partnerships are probably my biggest waste of time these days.
Lee:
Cool. I’m just going to rip the one up that I was sending to you. I’m joking.
Troy:
Just rewrite it, dude. I just told you how to write it. Oh, yeah. Dude. That’s right. Do you want to make a million pounds? And so, there’s this cool tool I found recently, and I can’t remember what it’s called. But it basically, if you put someone’s email address into it, it goes and grabs their social graph, and it tells you how to communicate with them based on their personality. It’s a tool, and I can’t remember what it’s called, but it’s a woman’s name. It’s like Siri or Doreen or Deidre or Olivia or something. And it actually goes – yeah, my mom’s name is Deidre. And it actually goes and gets their social. For me, for example, if you’re going to communicate with me, you’ve got to talk fast. You’ve got to paint big picture stuff. Like, I don’t worry about the details right now. Just big picture, impactful. Cut me off because I’m going to cut you off. Let’s get excited. You know, you don’t talk slow. You don’t go into too much technical detail because you’re going to put me to sleep. So there’s a great little tool, and I hope someone in the audience finds that tool and reminds me of what it is because I can’t remember. Oh, okay. You hit it here first. Find the tool. We need to find. Anglecrown.com, full slash group. Post it in the group. Let’s share it. Let’s do it. That’s amazing. All right, mate. We’re drawing to a close. We’ve got two more questions, and then I guess – and then we can do whatever. You’re awesome. I really appreciate being on the show. But David – no, no, no. Davinda Singh-Kainth, mate. Sorry. I’ve murdered your name again. He was on the Matt Report podcast just the other day. That was pretty cool. Episode number five of the latest series, guys. Check out mattreport.com. And he is saying – so in the context of you’ve built like your e-courses, and he’s saying how do you deal with slash reply slash adjust to make changes to users to the course if users are critical of what you’re offering, i.e. constructive criticism.
Troy:
So presumably he’s maybe received some. I’m not sure what to do. So that’s a great question. And my answer is – so we have ridiculously high completion rates of our courses and stupidly low refund rates. We get less than 1% of students’ refund. We offer a 30% refund of all of our products. We get less than 1% refund rates. And we get 75% plus completion rates of our courses where most online courses get about 10% to 15% if they’re lucky. That’s amazing. It’s a really simple way to make an amazing course that your students love, and that is to get them to design the course curriculum with you, right? So this is why I validate ideas before we build them. So here’s a great idea. I’ve got a course on how to, you know, make awesome videos with your iPhone. That’s the idea for my course. And I reckon I’ve got enough material for six modules, right? So let’s run a webinar where I’m going to teach you guys some cool shit you don’t know about shooting videos with your iPhone, some ninja stuff that no one else has researched. And let’s run a webinar. And let’s – the promise of the webinar is – if I was doing this, I would say something like the promise of this webinar is jump on this webinar, and I’ll teach you how you can start creating awesome video content with the camera that’s currently in your pocket so that you can position yourself as a thought leader online, right? Would you be interested in paying $97 for a webinar where I’m going to teach you that? Yes. Great. Same here. So what you do – there you go. So you teach for like 45 minutes, and then you say, now, I could – my standard line is this. I could stand here and flap my gums about this for days on end, but I would rather give you guys exactly what you want to know. So please let me know if you’ve got any questions, right? And I normally run these as a series of webinars when I validate ideas. And people say, oh, are you going to cover how to simulate 4K even though the iPhone can only shoot 1920 by 1080? And I say, yes, it’s funny you mention that. I’ve got that coming up in week three. And I start writing down every question they have, and then I go research, and I become the expert. And so by the time the webinar series is finished, I’ve answered every single question they have, and every single student is absolutely happy because I’ve answered all their questions. And then I know the course I’ve got is going to suit the market because the students have helped me design the curriculum. Hashtag nailed it.
Lee:
That is brilliant. So validate, and whilst you’re validating, let the people who are validating this with you structure, not dictate, but at least help you structure the course because they are going to be asking the questions that they’re going to want to – they’re going to get the answers to those questions that they’re already asking you from the course. Therefore, you’re going to give them a much higher satisfaction rate. Hey, this answers my question. I want to do this module. Oh, my gosh, that’s my question. I want to do this module. Mate, you’re a genius.
Troy:
Exactly. Clever. And all that, everything you learn from your students, you just put on the sales page when you finally launch the course, and you say, hey, module one answers this, module two answers this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah?
Lee:
Perfect. I am – this is like the playbook. I need to write this down. Assumedly, I’m also going to learn this if I head on over to Rockstar Empires and follow that course, I assume.
Troy:
Possibly. Well, let’s just do a shout-out then, guys. If you’re liking what you hear, and I know I am, it’s rockstarempires.com with my deep voice. I’m living this cold, man. Hey. It’s working for you. Last question. It’s from Nathan Wrigley. Wrigley. Oh, Nathan. Nathan. He’s got a – he’s so funny. WP Builds. Guys, check out WP Builds.com. That’s Nathan’s podcast with David. And Nathan is just really funny. I don’t even know if he realizes it, but just the way he talks and the little one lines he comes out with is just hilarious, and it’s a great podcast as well. Anyway, so he says, any moments in the past that make you cringe slash regrets? Trust Nathan. Did you say we had to wrap up soon?
Troy:
Oh, yeah. Because seriously, this could go for weeks. Any moments, any moments that –
Lee:
Well, shall we take the S off? Any moment, and then you can just say one.
Troy:
Wow. Yeah, there’s lots. I’ll tell you what. Go check out episode one of the WP Elevation podcast where I interview Brennan Dunn. Oh, okay. Yeah. Man, I watch that now, and I’m like, who is that guy? Like, I was so – I just – I look at that now, and I just realize I was so intimidated, man. I was so freaked out by doing a podcast and interviewing people who I admired. You know, there are plenty of moments that I – that, you know, make me cringe. And – but, you know, the thing is, it’s how you learn. And I think – I think I can kind of attribute my learning over the last five years because I’ve been very public, and I’ve been learning out loud, and I’ve been learning online. And, you know, so, yeah, look, there are – episode one of the WP Elevation podcast. You know, we – I tried to sell a workshop once in San Francisco. We sold one ticket. I had to cancel it and refund someone’s money. I tried to roll out a high-ticket coaching program once for $10,000 a year. We sold one ticket. I had to cancel that and refund the guy’s money. And then, because it was set up in Infusionsoft as a subscription, I actually billed the guy for three months after that. And he politely emailed me every month, and he’s like, oh, dude, I think you’ve canceled this program. It’s not happening, but you keep billing me. Can I get another refund? So I had to keep refund. He’s still one of our best customers, and I hang out with him. He comes around to lunch. So there are plenty of moments that are cringeworthy, man, plenty of moments, absolutely.
Lee:
That’s so cool. I remember back when I was interviewing you because when I first launched the podcast, you know, I had like those – I’d listened to your podcast for years and Kim Doyle as well. And I remember just being super scared and super nervous to get on the podcast with you guys because we do kind of – we elevate – pardon the pun – people, don’t we? We suddenly think that people aren’t necessarily – I don’t know. We kind of dehumanize people, don’t we? Like me and you and me and Kim and that. We all have great chats. We’re joking comments on each other’s Facebook feeds. We’re just – it’s a friendly atmosphere. You know, we’re just all human beings. And, you know, so people can take encouragement from that as well, despite the fact that you may have cringed at doing that. You know, you’ve now created great friends, et cetera, and you’ve got a great business from it as well, which is cool. So it’s all about execution and also not being scared to approach people because I remember after the podcast, episode five, you just said – you said some really nice things to me to encourage me. And that was awesome, man, because – and thank you for that. I don’t even know if you remember saying it. But, yeah, that’s – you know, this is episode number 73. And it’s going to go live in a couple of days.
Troy:
That’s awesome, dude. That’s cool. That’s so good. And if you listen back to my original episodes, I was, like, asking the same questions over and over again for – you know, following the John Lee Dumas model and then suddenly realizing that that actually gets a little bit boring. Yeah, it does. Yeah. It does. I love the guy, but I stopped listening to his podcast because I can’t hear him say, are you prepared to ignite one more time or I’m going to punch him? I know. I don’t know how he continues to do it.
Lee:
And you know what? What I love – I mean, what I loved about this podcast is that I didn’t even know when we’d started. We were just having a conversation and, yeah, we’re recording this and, awesome, we’re going to publish it. It’s great. It’s kind of the way we roll at the moment. So, Karen.
Troy:
Just to close a loop, I found that bit of software I was talking about. Oh, nice one. Yeah. And I’ve actually just run it over your LinkedIn profile. So, I want to see how accurate this is. It’s called – actually, first of all, let me tell you a little bit about yourself, Lee, and then I’ll tell you the software. So, apparently, Lee Jackson is influential, persuasive, and a visionary. This comes from your LinkedIn profile. I like the software. Lee is logical, inventive. He craves tough problems to solve, and he gets bored easily. Yeah. A quick tip. A quick tip. If you’re communicating with Lee, project confidence and boldness. There we go. And according to the DISC profile, which is a very popular personality profile, you are an ID, which is what I am as well. You are dominant. You are influence and dominant. You are not steady, and you are high also in calculating. So, apparently, it comes naturally to you to try and reduce – I’m calculating. You’re calculating, dominant, and influencing. That was bad. But you’re not steady at all. It comes naturally to you to try and reduce or avoid structure and bureaucracy. Yep. You also like to ignore an existing process in favor of doing it your way. Yep. And you also like to speak very persuasively in a one-on-one meeting. Yep. There you go.
Lee:
That software is stalking me. Yes. The software is called Crystal Nose, and I knew it was a girl’s name. Crystal, C-R-Y-S-T-A-L, crystalnose.com. Wow. It is – it’s amazing, dude. And you can sign up for free and get some stuff about people, and then you can upgrade to their plans, which are ridiculously expensive. I think the last time I looked – oh, no, it’s actually $19 a month for a communicator. So if you want to reach out to an influencer and you want just some inside tips on what makes them tick and what their personality is like, it’s kind of cool just to get across it. So crystalnose.com. You should definitely check it out. It’s a lot of fun.
Lee:
That is so cool. And it’s right, especially the bureaucracy thing because when Larissa joined the company, she’s never worked for anyone. This is her first job, and I just said, look, please never ever call me your boss because I’m not, and we’re all friends. And we’re all in this together, and there are no rules and regulations. There’s a few things we legally have to do. Like you have to have a contract. You have to have so many holidays and stuff like that. But other than that, I hate all of that sort of stuff. I hate the idea of HR departments and all that because I’ve just come from a long line of being in corporate jobs and just feeling so stifled and just hating being in those environments and the politics that came from it, et cetera. So Crystal really does know at crystalnose.com. That sounded like an advertisement. And it’s really interesting when you do yourself, man. It’s like looking into a mirror. It’s like, whoa. That is cool. I kind of liked that. It was kind of my bio. I’m going to copy and paste that as a bio. Oh, yeah. Someone asked me for a bio the other day. I’m like, oh, just go see Crystal. She’ll tell you. Yeah, it’s awesome.
Troy:
Mate, you’re a legend. So how can people connect with you? And then I guess we’re going to have to say farewell.
Lee:
Well, you know, I’m on Twitter at Troy Dean. I mean, I don’t really use Twitter much these days. But the best place really, and I hate to steal your Facebook group and put them into mine, but the best place really is our Facebook group. We’ve got a free Facebook group for Rockstar Empires. So it’s just facebook.com slash Rockstar Empires. That’s our free community, Rockstar Empires community Facebook group. There’s, I don’t know, a couple of thousand people in that group. And it’s awesome. There’s lots of conversation in there. We do live streams in there. We peel the curtain back and show people behind the scenes. If you’re not in there, please come and join Lee. And that’s really the best place to get engaged with me because I’m really active in that group and we do a lot of stuff in that group.
Lee:
So when you say free guys, I’ll put, sorry, mate, come in.
Troy:
No, I just say I’d love to, I’d love people to come in and introduce themselves and say hi and, you know, have a conversation.
Lee:
Guys, so if you go Rockstars Empires community, because there is another one, which is the study group, which is separate. But also I’ve got a link and I’ll put that in the show notes as well. And yes, I’m in there and there are some incredible people in there, including Troy and his team, obviously. But yeah, go ahead. Check that out. Very vibrant community. And you’re like, you’re adding members like weekly.
Troy:
Well, I mean, yeah, we do lead gen. I mean, that’s part of our lead gen strategy is we run Facebook campaigns. We get people to sign up for our lead magnets and then we funnel them into our Facebook community because that’s, you know, I think it’s probably as important, if not more important than having an email list these days is having a great Facebook group. Just because of the engagement. Email is getting really hard, man.
Lee:
Yeah. I don’t read any. Yeah, right. Who does? If I see it’s, yeah. In fact, it was one of your articles a long time ago, the one about unsubscribe that just has me unsubscribing from so many things. And like, you know, I said I bought that ClickFunnels book the other day just to learn a bit more about funnels. Like Russell, lovely guy, but he seems to be sending like a billion emails now. So it’s like, I’m just going to scroll down later on and hit unsubscribe. I’ll read the book and maybe I’ll resubscribe if there’s some thing I want to learn. But yeah, email for me. Here’s the thing about the internet that I’ve learned. And here’s the thing about, like, people don’t unsubscribe because they’re afraid of missing out. That’s the only reason people don’t unsubscribe. But here’s the truth. If you know where you’re going and you know what you’re trying to achieve, you can find any piece of information whenever you want it from the top expert pretty much for free. Because everyone’s got a lead magnet. And lead magnets these days are really good. They have to be because it’s so competitive. So you want to learn how to run Facebook ads? You want to learn how to hire a staff member? You want to learn how to sell your company? You can find anything out on the internet from the top experts. Why the hell are you subscribed to email lists? Unsubscribe, man.
Lee:
Yep. I will. Thank you. And just join our Facebook groups instead. Anglecrown.com forward slash group. You heard it from Troy. He said join the Facebook group. And also if you go to facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash rockstar empires, you’ll find a great group there to be a part of. Mate, you’re a legend. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. If you ever want to be on again, just like, you know, we could make this a regular thing. Yeah. Because this has been a fun show.
Troy:
It’s how I’ve had a lot of fun, dude. This has been a lot of fun for me for sure. And I’m going to reach out to you and book a time to get you on the WP Elevation podcast in the next few weeks.
Lee:
I can’t wait for that, man. I’ll be excited. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me, Leo. I really appreciate it. And I’m so glad you’re at episode 73, man. This is awesome. Keep up the good work. I think it’s 73 or 74.
Lee:
73.
Troy:
Yes, it’s around. It’s in the 70s. Thanks, man. Virtual high five. Cheers. Take care. Bye-bye.
Lee:
And there you are. You made it to the end of episode 73. Give yourselves a pat on the back. Don’t forget, there is a Facebook group, anglecrown.com/group. Also, what do you think? Do you think we should be moving things onto its own domain, wpinnovator.com, to get a bit of consistency in there? I don’t know, because I’m worried about the SEO impact as well on the website. So, brain’s kind of going all over the place at the moment. So, it’d be great to get your thoughts and your feedback on that. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you want to be on the show and talk about your experiences, etc., then please do get in touch. Just head on over to anglecrown.com forward slash contact. Don’t worry about the whole imposter syndrome thing, because like Troy said, all of us have it in the back of our minds. I even have it on this freaking podcast, thinking, who am I to be running a podcast? It would be great to have you on the show, to learn from you, to unpack your journey, and, you know, just to have a great chat as well and drink beer, because that’s essentially what I do most of the time. Troy was drinking beer. I was drinking coffee. But if it was an evening, I’d be probably drinking whiskey or beer as well. So, let’s have a beer or a coffee on the podcast together and have a chat. Anglecrown.com forward slash contact. It’d be great to get to know you more. All right, guys. Take care. Have a wonderful day. Toodaloo.