40:4 Care plans are not optional
Have you been underestimating the value of support contracts? This week, Dave shares how his care plans helped support his business through Covid. He discusses the initial impact Covid had on his mindset, how his care plans provided a recurring income and how he’s been able to add immense value to his clients.
- Don’t panic when things look bleak
- Review your care plans and pricing
- Make care plans a non-negotiable
- Put the “care” back into support contracts
Book – Slight Edge
WOM from the Admin Bar
0:00:07.7 Lee Jackson: Welcome to the Agency Trailblazer podcast. This is your host, Lee. And on today’s show, returning after five years, it’s the one and only, Mr. Dave Toomey. How are you doing, bro?
0:00:17.7 Dave Toomey: I am doing very well actually. We’ve had our first bit of sunshine here in God knows how long and so the vitamin D levels are rising, the caffeine levels are rising. So yeah. I’m in a good form. Good to talk to you. Absolutely. [chuckle]
0:00:31.4 LJ: Good to talk to you. We last spoke on the 21st of November 2016, that’s episode number 52, a great episode.
0:00:38.7 DT: You were just one year old. Look at that. You…
0:00:41.4 LJ: My voice hadn’t even broken.
0:00:44.8 DT: Now, look at you. Maturity personified.
0:00:47.0 LJ: Indeed, we’re still going. And like you said, just before we started recording, we still count each other as good friends, which is phenomenal. So it’s really good to have you back, mate, and thanks for coming on. We’re gonna be taking folks about the last year and a half or so of COVID. And don’t turn off, because we want to talk about some positive things that have happened in Dave’s life with his agency, so it’s really, really important. A lot of us have had bad experiences or negative experiences, or we’ve seen all sorts of negative stuff on the news, or we’ve seen good friends struggling or businesses that we’ve worked with disappear. And we’re gonna have a bit of a chill out chat today and learn how Dave has been able to weather the COVID storm and what he’s been doing about it. So before we do that, Dave, can you just let people know whereabouts in the world you hail from? People should know by your accent, but you know some people might not know. And just give us maybe a very brief, potted history of who Dave Toomey is in say 30 seconds to 60 seconds.
0:01:50.8 DT: Well, just to give you a hint. Top of the morning to you. And by the way, if you’re American, nobody says that here. I’m in… [chuckle] Just as the accent gives away, I’m in Ireland and I’m in Central Midlands, that kind of area. So we have to drive about two hours to three hours get to the beach, but we can pretty much go anywhere in the country within a few hours, so it’s cool. And we have done okay through this pandemic as a nation, but that’s where I am. And I started my digital agency… Gosh, oh gosh, I don’t know, 10, 12 years ago without realizing I was starting a digital agency. It was a case of, “Oh, you’ve built websites, can you build one for me?” type thing. And then the second one was, “Well, I gotta charge you $250 or something to do it.” He was like, “Okay, yeah, you can. No problem.” And then the next one just got better and better and better.
0:02:43.7 DT: So effectively, I just grew from providing a service, a need to people in my circle. And then my circle widened, and that’s why I think it’s important to actually network with people, not just in our own community, but out there people that you know have businesses and business relationships that you can tap into, and once you provide a service that means you’re… Somebody needs your services, then away you go. And that’s what I did. I didn’t sit down with a plan of spending this amount of money on Facebook ads and growing the business to this amount and the number of people in the team and all that. Stayed small and grew organically. I must say though, one thing I have learned from the last 12 months is having a good network and having people in that network doesn’t mean being on social media all the time, and I think you’re a big fan of that too. And because really what I found is in a bit of self-reflection with social media is that I was treating Facebook as a place to not show off my skills, but as a place to gossip.
0:03:55.1 DT: And I don’t mean that in the negative, “Oh so and so is doing so and so.” It was just like, “Oh, what’s happening in the industry? Or the business?” But I was actively seeking out that information as to “What’s going on in the world? I need to know because I’m missing out.” And then obviously two or three close friends, one of which I will make the claim is you, you would say, “Oh, have you seen this?” or whatever. But it was funny that just before the pandemic kicked off, there was like three, four, five of my very close WordPress pals, we all kinda got jaded and tired out with the whole social media thing, and I think it was… That was a big revelation as well, is that social media can be a place for growth of business, but it can also be a place that encourages death of your soul. And…
0:04:40.3 LJ: Well, to be honest mate, that actually encouraged my own mental health decline for quite a considerable time, especially during COVID, actually, with social media. And guys, if you listened to Episode 303, that’s what Dave is referring to, is where I kind of make the statement that I’ve been quitting social media, and I only have I think 111 Facebook friends, which is predominantly family, which is unheard of for the Jackson who had thousands of Facebook connections. Sorry mate, carry on. It’s not about me, but I’m just agreeing there.
0:05:11.3 DT: Oh no, it’s all about you. You’re just such a selfish human being. You don’t… There’s no give, give, give in the world of Lee Jackson. Is there really? Jesus, you’re about the least selfish person I know. Will you stop?
0:05:22.9 LJ: Sorry mate. [chuckle]
0:05:23.4 DT: Give yourself a pat on the back. I know you’re interviewing me. And you know my opinion about you and what you do for this community, so we’ll leave it at that.
0:05:30.6 LJ: That’s true.
0:05:31.0 DT: Yeah. But yeah. So really, I mean… Look, don’t get me wrong. I… The same as everybody else. I have a group of friends that when the pandemic kicked in, I kinda panicked really. And I kinda put it out there. And everybody was saying, “Jesus, I think is gonna be bad. Does anybody got any spare work? I’m quite happy to take it on.” And it was fear of the unknown rather than I was in trouble. It was fear of the unknown. I was like, “Okay, are we going down the quiet place route, where we have to live underground and be silent and not let the monsters catch us?” And that’s fairly scary, but not as an individual, but as a husband and a father, that’s what the scary part was. It was being a provider and a protector of people, little people, big people, medium people. But it was like, “These are my family, and as much as I love all you guys and everybody else, priority number one is putting food on the table, paying the mortgage, all that kind of stuff.”
0:06:23.5 DT: And everybody knows what happened. Unless you had a bottomless pit of money that you knew you were good for 10 years, for a month or so, you’re kinda like, “What the hell is going on here?” But that’s when the revelation came to me. I was like, “Well, hold on the second, I’m not as bad off as I think I am.” Or my brain was creating these visions of the S-H-1-T hitting the fan, when that never became the case. But your brain kind of plays tricks on you. It’s like the famous saying, “If you imagine it, it can become real.” But also the opposite is true, is that if you just because you imagine it doesn’t mean it’s real. And it’s like… My wife gets scary dreams sometimes and it really freaks her out, and it’s like, “Well, you know it’s a dream, that’s the whole point of it, it’s not real. And so calm down, take a breath, see what’s happening, and then go from there.” And that’s where we came to this discussion today was the one thing that I realized that I’d done in my business the few years previous was be vigilant in setting up care plans for my clients and having a residual income that grows month on month on month.
0:07:41.1 DT: And it’s not passive income. There’s no such thing as passive income in my book, unless you’re very, very rich and you wanna put money into stuff that you can walk away from and make money like gold or silver or stocks or whatever the blue-chip stocks, but there is no passive income. You have to care and look after and things and nurture stuff. But care plans became a major part of focus for my business. And pretty much a couple of years ago, I made the decision that I wasn’t gonna take any build jobs without a care plan attached to the end of it. And I know there are a few people in our community that promote this and are very good at promoting it, but it became real. It became real to me a couple of years ago and then became obvious that this was what was needed, to give me some peace of mind during those times last year. And I think one thing we were discussing before we hit record was there’s not enough people that are builders that are looking at care plans and maintenance plans for their clients, because they don’t think their clients will pay monthly for care plans. And I think that’s completely the wrong attitude to have. And a friend of ours, Kyle Van Deusen, has done his WOM thing which is amazing resource…
0:09:06.8 LJ: WOM.
0:09:07.8 DT: WOM. But that does exactly what I was doing for two years beforehand, which was… We as developers, WordPress developers, website builders, whatever way you look at it, we look at what we do as, “Well, some of this is easy.” Updating a plugin, anyone can do that. Backing up a website, anyone can do that. Checking that you’ve got all your email stuff set up and all that kind of stuff works, anyone can do that. And the God on the street is, small business owners don’t know how to do it, don’t have the time to do it, and don’t care about it, except that they know a lot of what we do for them is important to their business. So what they’re paying for is not updating plugins, not backing up websites, not making sure the security plugin is good. What they’re paying for is they can go to bed knowing that their website is working and their business is safe; so it’s peace of mind. So you’re not selling bricks, you’re not selling gadgets, you’re selling peace of mind.
0:10:17.6 DT: And from what I can see, and again, I’m not delving deep into the Facebook groups as much as I used to, there’s enough people out there that don’t think they can offer a care plan at a price that seems reasonable, I.e, anything from $100-$200 for simple maintenance. They think they should be offering hosting and maintenance for $19.99 a month. And it’s just not the case. It’s providing a service and value and doing it well and communicating with your clients on a regular enough basis. And I don’t mean reports, I mean, pop an email, “Hey guys. How’s it going? Remember, you’ve got two hours a month worth of work on the website. Is there anything you’d like to look at this month?” And then that’s it. You set the ground rules very early on with clients and say things like, “Listen, I’m not gonna be bugging you every month with a 16-page PDF to tell you that I’ve updated Contact7 plugin on your website. You don’t need to know that, you just need to know the darn damn thing works. So I’m gonna be doing this, this and this and this, and everything gets fixed and everything gets looked after. You just do your business and grow your business.” And it’s such a simple concept, but I never appreciated it as much as I did come the start of the pandemic last year.
0:11:32.9 LJ: I think what people do there, sorry, but is they look exactly at what they are doing and don’t think of the bigger picture. If someone was fixing my car and they can see that, well, all I did was tightened that bolt. Well, I’ve got the peace of mind that I’m not gonna crash my car, I think it’s worth that bolt being tightened and it costing me 50 quid. And I will pay that 50 quid even if it took you five seconds to do ’cause you’ve got the knowledge and I trust you, and I know I’m in good hands. It’s not quite the same as a care plan, but it is, if you know what I mean. It’s that peace of mind knowing an expert has me. And when the S-H-1-T, I like how you said that, does hit the fan, I’ve also got that person to lean on to look after my asset, which is my website, to do something with it, to fix it, to get it back online, to answer any questions or concerns that I’ve got, etcetera.
0:12:26.4 DT: Look, I have a certain number of clients that they could walk away tomorrow and they’d be fine, but the other clients, I know they’re stuck with me, and I have a few things in place where that if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, they’ll be all right. But what I mean by they’re stuck with me, and I don’t mean that in a negative way, I mean that they rely on me to help them with their business. I’m not the guy that backs up the plugins or backs up the database, I’m the guy that they go to for some kind of, “I wanna do this. Can we do it?” And I’ll “Yeah, but what’s your return on investment? What’s your return on time? Is it worth it? Maybe try this instead.” There’s a certain amount of marketing knowledge that I’ve gained over the years that I help with.
0:13:10.8 DT: But my ability to help them in their business has been proven by the way I run my care plans and the way I built the site in the first place. So they’ve become friends, I know their businesses, I’m familiar what’s happening in their markets. I know what not to do and what to do. And I tell a lot of my clients right up from the beginning it’s like, “Listen, you’re gonna come to me at some day and you’re gonna say, “Can I change that or can I put this widget in here, or I know a guy who’s got a website that does this.” And I’m gonna flat up say, ‘No, not happening.’ Purely because I know it won’t work and I’ve got experience in that.”
0:13:43.6 DT: And that’s where you’re talking about the kicking the tyres analogy, is the rattle in the car and the mechanic kicks the tyres and then he say, “It’s $200.” And you say, “What, you just kicked my tyres.” Well, they said, “It’s $1 to kick the tyre, but it’s $199 for having the knowledge of where to kick the tyre and when, and that’s what you’re paying for, you’re paying from my knowledge.” And care plans are an absolutely amazing way to actually build revenue, recurring income, but also to prove to business owners that you’re not just a guy that builds the website, you can provide other services on top of it. Now, you may set your agency up as we only do one thing and one thing only, and that’s we build websites or care plans, or whatever it is. But there are plenty of clients that I count as friends now, and they’ll come to me for advice and if I can provide that service, that’s more income to me. But also I can provide them or point them in the way of somebody who’s way better at it. And that just means that they’re more likely now to stay with me for care plans because I’ve helped them on the fount of knowledge, or I know someone who knows someone. These are all stresses in a…
0:14:48.9 DT: What does a guy who is a chiropractor know about email marketing? Yeah, we all know the guy who is a marketing genius that started out as a carpet cleaner, but he did so well… All that kind of stuff. But 99.9% of business owners out there haven’t got the foggiest… They don’t know what WordPress is, they don’t know what email marketing is, they just know that when they do this on that guy’s website, they got an email and they bought more of his products, so can that work for my website? All these kind of things. And you become a trusted part of their business, but it’s not because you built the website, it’s because you’ve given them peace of mind after you built the website. So I think that, again, like I said, it was a bit of a revelation come the start of the pandemic was that clients don’t want a website, they want peace of mind. So the starting point is the website, not the end of it. So going live with a website build is just the start of relationship, and it shouldn’t be the end of it. So care plans give that client peace of mind, show off your expertise and your knowledge and whatever, and you’ve got a monthly recurring income that’s when tough times arrive, you’ve got that as a crutch that you can lean on.
0:16:00.2 DT: And I know personal friends in the business, two or three of them that turn around and said, “I literally don’t have to work as hard as I used to because I’ve built my care plan business up from two, three years ago.” You make a decision, start it, insist that all new builds come with care plans. And you can prove the benefits of doing that. And the type of client that just wants a quick build, low cost and doesn’t want any maintenance, they’re the ones that are gonna be troubled because something is gonna go wrong and they’re gonna come back to you and you’re gonna say, “Well, to fix that, I’m gonna have to charge you money. We’re gonna have to charge you more money.” And all this kind of stuff and it just becomes messy, really. So I think the type of clients that go, “Yes,” when you offer care plans as part of your package, a compulsory part of your package. And you can have levels of care plans if you want, but really that’s something that’s really important, I think, for small freelance, small agency owners, is that pandemic protection in your back pocket, which is care plans.
0:17:08.9 LJ: I think what’s sticking out to me, mate, is the word care is very much a part of the care plan. So we have so often considered, I’ve seen these conversations online and I’ve heard them on podcast where people look at the care plan and they consider it to be just updating the WordPress plugins. What you’re doing though, is you’re creating care by communicating, by building relationships, by being the consultant, by adding value in multiple areas. And that’s not costing you hours and hours of your time, it’s just an email here, an email there, a quick messenger message or maybe a quick telephone conversation. But you are present, you are, like you said, building friendships with these clients, you are caring for their business, for their website, for their digital needs and pointing them in the right direction as and when they need it, because sometimes they don’t even know they need it until you point it out. You know that phrase, “You don’t know what you don’t know.” Often, your clients won’t know what they don’t know until Dave Toomey, the person who is caring for them is able to say, “Hey, you know, you could attract more business through an email campaign or through a targetted social media campaign or whatever the scenario.”
0:18:22.4 DT: The classic example last week was I had a client who decided that they wanted to up their SEO content game and make it a cornerstone of their marketing and wanted to chat. And the crux of the 20-minute chat was, did I know anyone that can do keyword research in a technical field, and am I that guy? And I straight up said, “No, I’m not your guy, but I know people. So leave it with me for a couple of days. I’ll contact my people and they’ll recommend someone, and I’ll pass it on to you.” And I’ll make sure that my connections… So this is the person to talk to. This is a proper legit somebody. You’re not just doing a Google search for technical keyword research company. You’re getting a personal recommendation because that’s my network that is valuable to me, and I can pass that value on to my clients, but it… I’m not going to say yes to everything.
0:19:21.9 DT: So if I felt like I was desperate for money because I didn’t have care plans going on, and a client came to me and said, “Oh, you’ve built a site from you now I want keyword research.” “Oh, I’ll do it.” And then I’m diving down YouTube into Ahrefs video series on keyword research, and then turning around to the client and saying, “Yeah, I can do it.” And I’m charging them a price that’s way too low because I don’t know what to charge them. I make a hames of it, and then I’ve ruined that relationship going forward. The problem is in that situation is you’ve got to really realize the damage you can do by doing something that you shouldn’t be doing, exponentially happens. And what I mean by that is if that client looks at me and goes, “Right, he’s good at building websites, but he’s not a trusted person for information about other stuff,” then how many other people that would have come to them over the next five, 10 years and said, “I need a guy that does X, Y, Z.” And they say, “Well, listen, go talk to Dave, Dave knows what he’s talking about. And if it’s not the right fit for Dave, he’ll know someone.”
0:20:20.7 DT: So it’s not about building as much as you can. And I don’t have 20 add-ons to my care plan. It’s not like, “Oh, do you want this? Well, here’s an add-on, 50 quid a month or whatever.” It’s like, do what you do, do it really well and be the person in their back pocket that can kick the tyre and fix the problem; and just be nice. That’s probably the best way to put it. If you’re a nice person and build relationships, and you’re not just faceless, and it doesn’t have to be you’re on YouTube creating quality content like Lee Jackson does, or a podcast, you can just literally be on the end of a microphone and have a conversation like we’re having right now.
0:20:58.7 LJ: Exactly, just telephone calls is fine.
0:21:02.1 DT: Telephone? What’s that?
0:21:03.8 LJ: [chuckle] Well, I’m old, like you mate, I still call it a telephone. I call, not even kidding, I call Audible my book tape. So I will tell my wife that I’m off to go and listen to my book tape for a bit. And she giggles at me every time I say it, but that’s what I used to listen to as a kid.
0:21:19.1 DT: I used to, as part of my early days working, I used to drive up and down the M1 and the M4, and the M25, and everything like that. And my favourite thing was stopping at a service station and rooting through the bin of cassette tapes, audio books, and falling in love with John le Carré and Robert Ludlum and all these guys that like the tapes, just like 16… You’d look at the back and you’d go, “16 hours. Oh yeah! Here we go.”
0:21:49.3 LJ: Perfect.
0:21:50.9 DT: That’s at least a week of driving. [chuckle] Just to… ‘Cause this is before podcasts. We had audio tapes. Oh my Holy Lord, I found a floppy disc the other day, and my 11-year-old son went, “Daddy what’s this?” Oh my God.
0:22:05.5 LJ: [laughter] So before we go down memory lane then, let me just kinda do a recap as we come into land. So what I’m hearing from you, bro, is that right at the beginning of COVID, you were like, “Are we… Is Armageddon happening? Oh crap.” But then you looked at your business and thought, “Well, realistically, are things as tough as I think they are?” And as you looked at the relationships you had, at the care plans you’d already built up over the last few years, you recognized that actually you could weather the storm and you could continue to look after and care for your clients during their needs. And you’ve been able to weather all the way through COVID and beyond.
0:22:46.9 LJ: Now, I think that the lessons that we can draw from that story as well is that word of care. Working with your client and just trying to sell website after website after website, which is certainly what we were doing back in the very first recession that I experienced, 2007, that sort of world is very difficult because once that pool dries up of the big spenders, you have no ongoing reoccurring revenue. So if an agency who’s listening right now or a freelancer doesn’t have that reoccurring revenue, and you’ve have had to struggle through COVID, and first of all, I’m really sorry to hear that, but you can start to make those changes now. You can start to seek new clients and sell them your care plan as part of the web build. You can even go back to previous clients and say, “Hey, we’ve launched this care plan service where we can help you get the most out of the investment you made with us one or two years ago, etcetera.” You can start to build that pool of care plan clients and reap those benefits over the next few years that you’ve explained.
0:23:57.8 DT: Absolutely, and if anybody’s kind of sitting on the fence, whatever I’d recommend you read the book, Slight Edge. An amazing book, and it’s one of those that it’s a business book, but you can apply it to everything in your life. It’s all about just small 1% changes over time. And the way to look at it is, if I start in January and I do one website build a month, that’s 12 website builds, I’m gonna get done this year. Well, if I start in January and I say to that website build person, “Right, you’ve gotta get a care plan.” And that care plan is, let’s say $200 a month. Well then, now in February, I do another build and I get another $200 a month, so that’s $400 a month. And then in March, I get another $200 a month added on, $600. So by the end of December, I’ve got 12, $200 a month, so that’s $2400 a month.
0:24:49.5 DT: And then I’m not gonna stop. So next year, it goes from 24 to… And it just grows and grows and grows. And at the end of the year, you’ve got way more than $2400, ’cause it’s not a one-off payment, you’re building and building and building slowly. And that kind of realisation that, “Hold on, I’ve got a little bit of leeway here. I’ve got a little… If I want to take next week off, I can do it.” Whereas before it was like if I didn’t have a build scheduled for next month, then I gotta sit down now and do some marketing and hit the books or hit the phones and start drumming up business, but if I am in a situation where I know something big is happening in my life in February, I’ve got that kind of fallback of, “Well, I’ve got a few thousand coming in that month straight away.” You wake up in the morning, you go, “I don’t have to panic. I can… ”
0:25:43.5 DT: But also as well is when you’re selling… Clients know when you’re panicking, you’re discounting yourself, you’re discounting your prices to get the sale, and you make choices of choosing bad clients because you need the money. That kind of monthly income from care plans just helps so much more when it comes to being happy in your business, because you have that fallback. You have enough to pay the mortgage and the bills, you can be a happier person for your family as well as for your business. And that’s important, and I think we don’t… I think a lot of us just didn’t take care plans seriously enough soon enough. And I regret that, I wish I’d started sooner, but here we are. And it’s helped over the last 12 months significantly, but it’s given me more peace of mind as well as my clients.
0:26:45.7 LJ: That’s awesome man.
0:26:46.1 DT: And I think that’s important as well, particularly because… And I think just the way I’m looking at it is the growth of agencies from a single freelance solo person to small team to large agency design shop situations, I think there’s gonna be, the same as in the real world, there’s gonna be the extremely rich and then there’s gonna be the poor, and the gap between the two is just gonna increase. And I think that’s the way things are going from a WordPress point of view, is there’s gonna be people making that shift purely because of what the pandemic did. There’s an awful lot of large businesses that would have thought nothing in spending 20,000 to 50,000 on a decent website, and now they’re not going to do that.
0:27:36.5 DT: I see it in friends’ and families’ businesses, they’re just not gonna spend that kind of money when they can get the job done for a little bit cheaper, or if you’re a big corporate, then you’re definitely spending a lot more, like the 100, 200, 300,000. So that kinda middle ground, there’s gonna be a lot of, I think agencies that are deciding, “Do I want a lifestyle business where I can work a lot less stress-free or do I wanna jump in with some big massive company and be an employee or own something like that?
0:28:07.5 LJ: And that is why you are listening to this podcast. The slogan of Agency Trailblazer is “Build an agency you love and keep it.” And that could be the lifestyle business, Dave, that you’re describing as well, what sort of business do you want? And you can build that, and Dave has been building that. That book really good recommendation, Slight Edge. I will put a link to that in the show notes. I’ll also put a link to The Admin Bar, which is Kyle, the community sorry, but the WOM that came from that, that was the Website Owner’s Manual. I’ll put the link to that as well in the show notes, ’cause that’s a great way to help your client understand at a practical level, the need of somebody looking after the website for them. And this episode gives you all of that extra that you need with regards to adding the care part to your care plan.
0:29:00.5 LJ: Dave, you’ve been absolutely phenomenal. We are unfortunately out of time. I’m not gonna leave it five years to get you back on, ’cause I feel like me and you could just talk for hours. So maybe you can come on in two-and-a-half years or so. In the meantime, let’s continue to keep in touch. I can’t wait to see you when Agency Transformation Live does its next physical show, we are aiming for 2022, if all looks well. So I’ll keep you posted on that one. Folks, if you wanna find out more about Dave, you can head on over to…
0:29:31.0 DT: Oh! Good, gosh. My business is toomeydigital.com, but if you wanna connect with me personally, probably the best place to message me at the moment is Instagram. If anyone’s got any questions about care plans or something, I don’t know. I can’t remember, is there comments on this post?
0:29:46.9 LJ: There is.
0:29:48.9 DT: Aye! Put a comment in Lee’s post for this podcast, and I’ll keep an eye on it and I’ll get Lee to forward me any questions and I’m happy to answer.
0:29:58.8 LJ: Awesome, I am now your secretary. I like it.
0:30:01.3 DT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughter] I’m delegating the work to you mate. [laughter] And I’ll do audio replies, keep it lazy.
0:30:09.0 LJ: Nice one.
0:30:10.6 DT: But listen, by the way, thanks very much for having me on. It’s a privilege and an honour to know you, but also to be considered a friend by you. You do so much for this community. I’m really chuffed that you’re a friend.
0:30:20.9 LJ: Thanks, mate.
0:30:21.6 DT: Oh no, I’m not kissing your ass, you’re still a pain in the backside sometimes, but it’s…
0:30:25.4 LJ: Yeah, whatever.
0:30:28.3 DT: But yeah. And I say it all the time, Agency Transformation two years ago in Wellingborough was one of my favourite things to have gone to in my whole career.
0:30:38.4 LJ: Well, here’s to 2022, mate. I hope we can do it. So I’ve got a lot of vines in the fire with it right now, but I’m not making any public announcements yet until we know this vaccine is doing its job. But anyway.
0:30:53.2 DT: Well, when you’re ready to tell us all about it, just send details to the Bluetooth in my arm and…
0:30:58.9 LJ: [chuckle] Will do, I’ve got it too.