Dickiebirds Studio – #AgencyLife

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Verbatim text

Lee:
Welcome to the Agency Trailblazer Podcast. This is an Agency Life episode coming to you every Wednesday and Friday, where we interview an agency owner from around the world, asking them the same questions because we’re all different, but we’re all the same. So let’s listen and learn from each other. This podcast is brought to you by the agency Trailblazer Blazer community? Is agency life stressing you out? Then? It is our mission to help you build an agency that you love. We’ve created a community which includes the Agency Reset roadmap, that will allow you to get your agency back on the right track. We also have lots of noble, straight to the point, easy to consume workshops. We have a thriving community of other agency owners, and we all wrap up every month with a mastermind call with myself and sometimes a special guest where we unpack your questions. For more details, check out agency Trailblazer Comm. Welcome to another episode of Hashtag Agency Life. And on today’s show, we have a name you’ve probably heard mentioned quite a lot by a lot of our guests, especially in relation to them having to spend money on something that this guy has found.

Lee:
And this guy is called the very. The one, the only, Mr. Paul Lacey. How are you today?

Paul:
Awesome. Thank you very much, Lee. It was a.

Lee:
Pretty epic intro, really.

Paul:
Wasn’t it? It was amazing. Yeah. Money spending aspect, though.

Lee:
That’s all right. Well, you found some really good tools. We all appreciate it. You know, um, I felt like I should have maybe put in some sound effects as well of, like, clapping or something like that.

Paul:
Yeah. Um, there is a new deal on Appsumo for sound effects, if anyone’s interested. Really? Are you.

Lee:
Actually kidding?

Paul:
Nope. I gotta.

Lee:
Go and check that out straight after this.

Paul:
Which is awesome.

Lee:
If anyone’s never heard of Appsumo, which would be unusual, just given that most people are listening to this show, have usually emailed in with letting me know what the latest deal is. Thank you very much. Um, go and check it out appsumo.com. There’s usually a very good lifetime deal for us web developers and designers. That is freaking awesome. And there’s another one as well called, um. Oh, is it like weekly deals? I think.

Paul:
It’s lifetime. Or is it mighty deals? Mighty. Very good. Yeah, that’s.

Lee:
Really good if you’re a designer because they if you Google Mighty Deal’s really good. If you are a designer and there are tonnes and tonnes of of packs of design elements, etc.. So if you don’t want to be subscribing to like Shutterstock for all your iconography and your vectors and all that, then you can buy these mega bundles from Mighty Deals as well. So all right, so now that we’ve helped everyone spend their money, we’re now going to dive in to agency life and we’re going to head off with the first question. Mr. Lacey, tell us the name of your agency and what it is you do.

Paul:
So we are the Dickie Bird Studio, and we are a WordPress and UX agency based in the UK.

Lee:
Nice. And right now both of us have got fans blowing at us because it’s slightly warm in the UK and we just cannot cope.

Paul:
Can we know the fun over there? You can see is the is the big one. That one’s turned off because it will you won’t be able to hear anything because we’ve both got one. We’ve both got a fan. We’ve both admitted under our desk, pointing up towards us. Exactly. Because my shins, I’ll have to say, though, and.

Lee:
It’s quite literally the only thing everyone in Britain is talking about right now is the weather. More so than normal anyway. Right. So if we’re going to have a birthday party on this beautiful, hot summer’s day and we’re all going to get together, have a few beers, have some, uh, you know, what was it? Pineapple rings or whatever it is that you do with the bit of.

Paul:
Cheese on a.

Lee:
Stick? That’s it. And sausage on a stick, all that sort of stuff. When would your agency’s birthday be?

Paul:
I’m not exactly sure, but I think it’s I’m going to go with May 2008. And that’s the first iteration of Dickie Birds. That’s Dickie Bird Studio 1.0.

Lee:
Nice. So basically ten years old in May. You missed your birthday, and we could have all had this massive party cut off.

Paul:
Yeah. Good. I was probably just, you know, working away on some client job or something instead.

Lee:
And was hashtag agency life mate. You know.

Paul:
Let’s be real now, we’re not all.

Lee:
On the freaking beach all the time, despite those pictures that are on Instagram. All right. Let’s talk about your setup then. And I’m really interested to learn how many people are in your team.

Paul:
So we are a partnership of two. Myself and Peter. And then we’ve got two employees, which is Adrian who you met at WordCamp. Yes. He is one of our WordPress developers. And also Lindsay, my wife. She is, uh, she her title these days is client. What do we call it? Uh, client management or something like that. But actually, she’s getting well into UX now, which is amazing because Peter’s passing on, um, knowledge and skills and software and stuff like that. So right now she’s actually back at home at the moment, rather in the office because it’s school holidays and my daughter’s at home and stuff like that. But she’s right this moment, wireframing a website and figuring out the user journey and stuff like that. And she’s doing something that you taught me, which was to give the user a name.

Lee:
Brilliant. What’s the user’s name?

Paul:
She don’t know. She hasn’t told me yet.

Lee:
I usually go with Bob. Bob is usually the first name that comes to my mind every single time.

Paul:
I’ll let you know, though.

Lee:
Yeah, yeah, that would be great. All right, well, then the next question is I can see on camera. And folks, if you’re listening to the recorded version on podcasts, remember you can go to agency trailblazer.com/youtube and watch these Agency Life series via the YouTubes as well. And see this gorgeous guy who literally looks like a lumberjack right now. But my next question to you is, do you have an office, a physical office where you all get together? Or are you a virtual setup where you’re all at home?

Paul:
Um, I’ve always had an office, uh, pretty much from day one. Um, I’ve. I’ve never had a situation in the house where we’ve we’ve had a space for an office. So it’s always been the case that we needed a space somewhere. So right from the beginning, we back in when when I started out, um, ten years ago, we we got some funding and we got an office in Birmingham. Central Birmingham, which was amazing. And, you know, and then we Then I was working, sharing some space in a in an arts centre for a couple of years. Then me and Peter were working from an office in Walsall in the West Midlands. And now, um, I did have a stint of about six months where I didn’t have an office and that was awful. I just it was it was really, really bad because I didn’t have an office and I didn’t have a home office either. I was just sitting at a dining room table. It was the worst.

Paul:
It was kind of terrible. Yeah. And then when we spoke briefly yesterday, I was in my one of the offices that I can use from time to time, which has got my meeting table and my pool table and my, my other sofas and stuff like that. Yeah. And that’s a, that’s a converted courtroom over in a place called Redditch. But I’ve generally moved out of there now and um, settled in this, this little office in Bromsgrove where myself and Lindsey or myself and Peter or all three of us will work from here. Adrian currently lives in Walsall, over in the West Midlands, so he doesn’t need to come over here every day. He hasn’t got a car so he just works from home. Well, if he’s a.

Lee:
WordPress developer, that’s what you do, isn’t it? You lock your WordPress developers up at their home and get them coding all the time.

Paul:
That’s right, that’s right. So yeah, we’ve got this this little office. It’s it’s a pretty cheap office. It’s probably cost less than what people are having to invest in their home office. But it’s just a great den to come to, you know, it’s just got all my stuff. It’s got all my. You can’t see them. But behind that tree, which isn’t real, by the way. Oh, and nor is the other one over there. There’s a whole bunch of Star Wars figures on the on the shelf up there. You might be fantastic. And all my toys are in here and stuff, you know. Why not my books? It’s cool. And I come here on the evening as well, sometimes just to on my night off.

Lee:
Oh, no, I get that too. I’ve often sat in our office with Netflix.

Paul:
Yeah, exactly. I’ve got 4K streaming.

Lee:
System, 4K screen. Yeah.

Paul:
Brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah. Cool.

Lee:
Right. Well, let’s talk about your team culture. Can you describe for us the team culture you have? And I’ve already got to witness some of this because when you three. So that was Pete at you and Adrian. Adrian were together at in in WordCamp. I could definitely see the sort of dynamic that you guys had. But could you describe for the listeners and the watchers, the sort of team culture that you all have together?

Paul:
So we all work super hard. Um, that’s that’s one thing. Um, but we always try to have something interesting that we’re working on on the side as well. Um, so that we’re, you know, improving our skills constantly. That’s not necessarily a conscious decision that I’ve made as the the boss as such. It’s just that all of us need something interesting to work on. So, you know, today Adrian’s working on some quite boring stuff, to be honest. And he’s kind of, you know, uh, kind of work on this, and. No, we need to get that stuff out the studio and done, and then we can get back to the the fun stuff that we’re doing in between and everything. So I think it’s it’s really, you know, and because Dicky Birds in version 2.0 of Dicky Birds, um, which is covered in your, in our interview that we did on the, on the podcast. That’s right. Um, is the new version of Dicky Birds since the hiatus is actually only kind of 7 or 8 months old.

Paul:
So really the the culture is completely new than it was before. Our previous culture just kind of went downhill into just, you know, slogging away and moaning about everything. And, you know, we’ve learned from that in a kind of time of hiatus and stuff and come back and and now we have a number of side projects, we do some giving back stuff. And we, we want to, you know, go to Wordcamps and stuff like that and, uh, and just try to have fun if we can. And we try to talk to each other every day. Um, I’m probably the worst at that. Um, Adrian, thankfully, um, will push me and be like, can we talk in the morning and then in the evening, not the evening, you know, in the afternoon. And so we get into this kind of thing where we just say, let’s just talk for five minutes in the morning. What are we working on? Is anything blocking you? If it’s blocking you?

Paul:
How can I help? Or how can he help me remove the block? For instance, Peter is off on his own in a way, working on the UX stuff, so he’s not kind of interacting with us too much on a day to day basis because he’s off doing the UX for this, um, car dashboard stuff at the moment. But, um, but then he’ll come in once, once a week when he’s not doing that. UX contracts, which is one of our contracts with Dickie birds. But you have to go to the client’s place to do this because it’s pretty intense four days a week. Um, so then we just get together and, you know, last, last week, I think we just went to a cafe in Bromsgrove, drank some sangria and figured out what was going on. And, and then he got on with some of the design work that we needed to do. So we tried to keep it fun. There is stress, but you know, we try to make sure that we’ve got some cool stuff as well as the monotonous stuff going on.

Lee:
You’ve got the cool stuff to intersperse with all the stressful stuff. You’ve got a culture of supporting each other as well and talking regularly and hanging out together. And then the fun was the bit that I got to see, because you guys were bantering with each other and making fun of each other in a nice light-hearted way like crazy. And I got to join in with that. And we had a really good laugh at each other’s expense. But clearly everyone loves each other, so I yeah, I really enjoyed that little insight into how you guys all hang out, so it was lovely.

Paul:
Well, Peter and I have been business partners for, you know, ten plus years and you’ve.

Lee:
Not wanted to kill each other, so that’s.

Paul:
Amazing. We have. No.

Lee:
Not.

Paul:
You know, not right now. But, you know, previously we have. He would win. He’s you know, he’s he’s been in professional Muay Thai fights and stuff like that. I’ve done nothing I can’t fight. So he would win in that battle unless I had some weapons. But we’re good friends now and we always have been really close. Yeah. And that’s the thing about business partners and growing, you know, from one person to multiple people is that, um, it’s extremely difficult, I think, to find someone who you actually genuinely click with. Yeah. Um, probably harder than finding someone to marry. I imagine I’d.

Lee:
Agree, uh, with my business partner, Tim. You know, we’ve we’ve got over ten years now together in the other company, and it’s it was it’s been a very long process. He described something that I’ve never forgotten about the norming, storming and then performing of any relationship. And this actually applies to client relationships as well. Whenever you take on a new client or you maybe meet someone to maybe start a business and that there’s this stage of kind of norming, um, where you’re starting. Sorry. The initial phase is storming, sorry, where you’re all trying to work together, but it’s a stormy time because you’re all trying to learn how each other works. And there might be a few arguments and it’s a bit difficult, etc. then you get to the norming, the normalisation part where you’re getting used to how each other works. You’ve made your relevant kind of, uh, you’ve worked out your processes together so that everyone’s included. Everything’s starting to get better. There’s a few arguments here or there, and then you get to the performing stage where you’ve both, you know, really gelled and everything is working.

Lee:
Your processes are working, and you’re just going out there and killing it. So that was very off subject, but I thought I might as well share that, because that’s something that we learned really early on in our business partner relationship, because it was very tumultuous turmoil. I can’t think of the right word, but it was quite stressful for the first couple of years whilst we were really trying to get, um, kind of work out the best working relationship between each other. But anyway, let’s move on because I want to talk about your mission and apparently Mission Impossible. The latest version is absolutely amazing and everyone has to go and see it. So I’m going to go and do that this weekend. Just thought I’d let you know. Right?

Paul:
I’m a fan of Tom cruise who’s not who’s not I mean, I know he’s kind of a bit odd in times. I did hear that he’s got just one tooth at the front, but maybe that’s just an internet rumour.

Lee:
That’s just people who are jealous.

Paul:
Yeah.

Lee:
Maybe your mission.

Paul:
Should you.

Lee:
My mission? Do you work in a particular industry or a particular niche?

Paul:
Uh, not an industry as such, but we definitely have niche down. Um, so from the previous version of tiki bars where we were just accept anything. Uh, we we’ve completely niched down to a very tight niche called WordPress. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. No.

Lee:
No, no. WordPress. Okay.

Paul:
So originally well, it’s not just WordPress. So we’re trying to go further than that. Yeah, a little bit. Um, we’re trying to niche down to UX combined with WordPress. Yeah. Um, and that gives us a focus of what we do do and what we don’t do. So from the UX point of view, we think, okay, so a person arrives on the website and we’re hoping that they’re going to eventually do something at the end, which might be on the same day, it might be within minutes, it might be a few weeks later. Yeah. But our job is the bit from where that person arrives on the website. We don’t know where they might come from, but we can obviously track that, of course. But our job really with our clients now is what we’re trying to push with them, is to start them at the point the person arrives on the website, to the point they achieve the best mutual goal for the for the website and the the user that’s on there at the same time.

Paul:
So it means we stop worrying about do we do SEO or not because we make SEO ready websites. But we’ve decided, no, we’re not going to do SEO because that is not part of the user journey of the website. So yeah, so it gives us that kind of focus and it gives us a mission to communicate to a client why we do that bit and why we’re specialists in that and why we don’t do other things.

Lee:
That’s really good. And you’ve got there is it’s like a productized niche. It’s a very particular service that you offer to multiple different industries. People often think that a niche is I have to build websites for accountants or something like that, but actually a niche can be very much around what you’ve described, which is you’ve got a productized service service that any industry could do. But it’s a very clear set of problems, and that kind of goes into our next question of what do you feel the main problem that you solve for your clients is?

Paul:
So I think it’s um, I think a big problem for probably maybe ten, even 20 years of the web has been that it’s a it’s still a new thing in the history of humankind and communication and marketing and stuff like that. And I think for decades, uh, agencies and designers have been hired, and it’s not their fault that they get hired. We were the same, get hired, and they say, design us a website, and then you design them a lovely website, and it’s great, and everyone’s happy. And then. And then you come back a few years later and design another one for them or something like that. So I think the problem with that is that the people who have been leading in the web design industry. Our web designers and developers mostly. And as a result, we deliver the service that we know how to do. So we might have been trained in another agency, we might have worked for an arts organisation or something like that, and we learned how to design websites and make them look nice and stuff like that.

Paul:
And we’ve got some idea about UX and all that kind of thing, but we’re thinking about what the client asked us to do, and they said, design a website. And so we designed a website. So long story short, the the thing I’m getting to is that what we think we solve now for people is just taking a step back, which a lot of us are doing now, which is great, but it’s a hard transition, is to take that step back and say it’s more than just the website design that we can offer you. And if we don’t mention these things to you and we don’t talk about user experience, and we don’t talk about lead generation and stuff like that, then you’re going to be missing out on all sorts of opportunities and not have an optimised tool that works for your business. So I think that’s probably the problem that we’re trying to solve now is removing the kind of the terminology web design from what we do and, and looking at business solutions to basically get a user from here to there.

Paul:
You’re selling outcomes.

Lee:
I think is the one line version of what you just said. Is that right?

Paul:
Well said.

Lee:
There you go. So you’re selling outcomes.

Paul:
Put that on the website.

Lee:
We sell outcomes. All right. So let me regurgitate that then again to you. And that sounds gross doesn’t it. But let me let me rebrief that to you. Uh, web designers are great at designing websites. You guys, though, have had that mindset shift where you’ve realised that it’s not just about designing a beautiful looking website, but it is very much about solving the issue, about how do we get the person visiting to do whatever it is we want them to do? Is it fill in a form? Is it subscribe to a newsletter, is it to purchase something, etc.? And many companies have beautiful websites that are not doing any of those things. So you guys are taking that step back and doing those and creating or planning for those particular outcomes.

Paul:
Exactly. Yeah, we broke it down into three phases. Um, and you’ve paused.

Lee:
On my screen, which is absolutely hilarious because we’re having a bit of internet problem. Oh, no. You’re back now? Yes. There you go. Sorry. Carry on mate. I’ll try and keep still.

Paul:
I try and keep still.

Lee:
Don’t. You’ll scare me. Um.

Paul:
So it looked.

Lee:
Like you were doing a ventriloquism. Carry on me.

Paul:
Okey doke. So, yeah, we’ve tried to break it into three stages, which is still in early, early days in terms of how we’re kind of structuring this, but we’re calling the first stage strategy and and discovery. Uh, phase two is create the, um, vpvp we call it, which is the very viable product instead of just viable product or minimum viable product. And that is the website, basically. And then we have a third stage called growth to goals. And the whole point is, is that in the strategy and um, and discovery, you figure out what are those goals? Which is a pretty standard thing. You know, people are doing this a lot. The the one where it’s create the MVP. We’re not mentioning the word website as such. We’re just trying to get away from that word. Yeah. But we are essentially creating a website. But we’re making sure that energy levels stay high. So we’re not trying to say, right, we’re in this phase of creating the website.

Paul:
We’re going to try and do all the lead gen stuff, all the landing pages, all the different connexions to social media, stuff like that. We’re going to do the core stuff, and then we’re gonna have these growth goals where we go, oh, we’ve done the website, we’ve launched it. Everyone feels great and refreshed again, and the pressure is gone. And now we can go back to that creative moment we had in the strategy and discovery and implement some cool landing pages that we were just running out of. When I say we, I’m talking about the client as well. Just, you know, they’re out of energy towards the end of the project usually, and just want to get it live. Awesome. So that’s how we’re trying to enforce that. You know, it’s not just a thing we say that we do. We’re trying to build it into a build way that at the end of the project there is some post-project, um, investment that goes specifically into doing those things that we all said that we were going to do at the beginning.

Lee:
I got you. That’s good mate. I like it. Now then, I want to talk about marketing. And I’ve only got one question for you in marketing. And that is how are you guys generating your leads?

Paul:
Um, so previously we were purely word of mouth or pipeline. Previous pipeline because it worked in some, um, some organisations before I was a freelancer. And those pipelines just maintained strong for a long, long time and still do. Uh, since we started Dickie Buds 2.0, um, our marketing is accidentally, uh, well, maybe semi intentionally, um, much more intentional than it was before. And it’s content marketing. So we, um, we try to create things that that will give us a higher profile. Um, for instance, the Generate Press Sites project that we work on getting involved with the Beaver Builder guys for that and the YouTube videos that we create and just and you know, and going on podcasts and telling stories and stuff like that. And we’re just trying to get our name out and our name kind of solidified in what it is that we do, and it’s genuinely working. And I totally recommend it to anybody because it really does build your brand. And as a result, you know, we had pretty much predominantly UK clients a year ago, and now I’d say we probably got 20 to 25% are from the States or Canada, which have come purely through the efforts of doing content and creating fun, cool things, just initially for fun.

Paul:
Just because we needed a creative outlet would completely echo that.

Lee:
Yeah, I would echo that the last three years of doing this podcast, we are now a global agency as opposed to a UK based. We’ve got clients all over and just just onboarded a client, um, through from Germany again through content that we created. So it’s absolutely works. All right. I want to do a bit of confession time with you, because it’s just me and you, a few thousand listeners, you know. So you’re in good company, mate. And can you be as honest as you dare? But what is the biggest problem you guys have as an agency that you’d love to solve?

Paul:
Um, currently at the moment I think my technical, uh, not technical, but I think that email inbox bottleneck is sometimes crippling. So you have a good plan for the day, and then your inbox just explodes with questions, problems. And if you’re a helpful person, like I’d like to think that I am, then you do attract questions. Obviously. So. So at the moment I’m just trying to work on a way to make communication via email a much smaller part of my every single day, and then I’ll have far more time to work on the more cool things or the client work because, um, you know, there’s only four of us in the team, and I’m one of the, you know, I’m the most experienced WordPress developer and designer in the team, and too much of my time is used up writing emails because I’m also the marketing person and I’m wearing many hats, obviously, as well as this one. Yeah. Um, that’s it really.

Lee:
Couple of tips there quickly, because that’s something that we struggle with for a long time. There’s a system called sandbox, which will automatically philtre a whole load of junk into different folders or things that you just need to look at later into other folders. And you can also bounce certain emails for a couple of days so that they can come back to you, that they’re not important. So if someone sends you a question email, you can literally bounce that into, oh, send me that in three days time because I’ll look at it then. Um, and you can even have it triggered so that it sends an auto reply to that type of email or something saying along the lines of, hey, thanks for that. I’ll be back with you in a couple of days or whatever that is. So that sets the expectations. But also we check our emails in the morning and in the evening. So you’ll often send me an email and you’ll know I won’t actually respond until the following day. And sometimes if you’ve said to me, I’m not expecting a reply.

Lee:
Then you know you won’t get a reply for at least three days because I’m not always in my inbox. I’m trying to keep out of it. So that would be my my top tips. That’s awesome. On that though. Then the next section we talk about is wellbeing and you are a very helpful person. You’re very similar to me that you you don’t often switch off. Have you found any ways of being able to switch off from the business, or from the kind of any sorts of thought processes that are draining your mind?

Paul:
Extremely difficult, extremely difficult.

Lee:
I know that is also fine. No.

Paul:
Yeah. I mean.

Lee:
It’s all a work in progress, isn’t it?

Paul:
No, I do have I do have some, you know, some things that I do and, and probably it’s the creativity side of things, the doing things, you know, just for the fun of it that actually turn into cool things. So I absolutely love working on the, you know, the beaver builder, Rose. I love working on the Generatepress sites, that kind of stuff, because there’s no there’s no client at the end. But there is a responsibility that, you know, you know, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people might be using the stuff that you’re doing as a collaboration, and you can put your best into it. You can just put your best into it. And you know that the, you know, Tom Osborne will love what you’re doing. And the guys at Beaver Builder will, you know, really appreciate and love what you’re doing. And then you know that you put everything into it. So a bunch of people are going to really like that.

Paul:
And that’s a that’s me. You know, last night, for instance, was my call night, which is where I can do whatever I want. And I just turned on my laptop when I was designing Beaver build arrays for that project. And and that was what I wanted to do in my spare time, because.

Lee:
That’s a good answer.

Paul:
Yeah.

Lee:
I’m just going to add to that then, mate. Um, I’ve often said that I switch off by doing more code and people are like, you’re an idiot. And like, no, I actually do what I love anyway. But doing something where I can create and I can see the result of that. So if you think of our client projects in an agency, many of them will go on for several weeks. So you have to do lots and lots of work, and you don’t necessarily see the fruits of your labour for a very long time. What you’ve described is you can, you know, put together something in your pool night that you know, very quickly is going to be appreciated by a lot of people. My way of switching off is cooking. I will make a meal and within an hour I’ve made something amazing and I get to watch the family really enjoy that. So that’s like that instant satisfaction. So that’s one of my ways of of switching off. So, you know, if you feel bad for sitting coding for fun out of hours, that actually might be your way of gaming or whatever.

Lee:
We all have different ways.

Paul:
So yeah.

Lee:
So I just thought I’d validate that as well. Well, let’s hit it with our last question then, mate. And then we’ll kick you off the show because you are a talker and we love you for that. Um, it is you got to name one tool and I think I probably know what it is, but, um, name one tool that has been essential to your agency’s success and why.

Paul:
I can’t name one. Sorry. And because we know each other. If we didn’t know each other already, I would. I would, you know, do what you told me now. But because we’ve met in real life and had a beer.

Lee:
In your hand, it’s on your hat. I can see.

Paul:
It. There you go. Yeah. There’s one. That’s one of them. That’s one. No, it’s definitely there’s two, it’s two. It’s Beaver Builder and generatepress. Those two tools are extremely critical to what we’ve done in the last couple of years. You know, whether it’s me before Dicky Birds 2.0 or what our future looks like. So those are the two technical tools. The non-technical tool is that whiteboard that you can see back there that’s been amazing. That was good. It’s so good that somewhere I don’t know where it’s gone. There’s a small version. It’s over there that we draw little funnel diagrams and stuff on because that’s full up as you can see. Yeah. So I need more whiteboards. So definitely generatepress and Beaver Builder, amazing communities, amazing founders and creators of those, those particular products, and they are extremely important to me in this phase of my life.

Lee:
And a whiteboard. And as it’s you, Paul, I’ve let you break all the rules and you’ve just listed three. And I’m usually forcing people to pick one. So but it’s that smile. I just, I just just I just I’m sorry. It’s all right, mate. Well, thank you very much for being on the show as well. Thank you for bearing with the few internet glitches. So if you’ve listened to this and there’s been any cut offs, we will try and make this a succinct episode that just flows. But sadly, me and Paul did have a couple of internet issues whilst we were recording this. It’s been a great time learning about your agency mate and thank you so much folks. Everything will be in the show notes. If you need to get in touch with Paul, you can connect with him. We’ve got all of his links and some information as well about his agency in the show notes. You can check them out over on agencytrailblazer.com. So all that is left for me to say mate, is thank you and have a wonderful day.

Paul:
Thank you mate. Cheers.

Lee:
Bye.